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Author Topic: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary  (Read 2788 times)

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Offline Elkjær

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2017, 03:21:42 pm »
This is just my own opinion and not related to devs but I guess the land battles should focus on encouraging people to stick together in groups.

In NW inaccurate muskets, the fear of melee gank and cavalry encouraged you to stay, if not in formation; then in your groups to discourage others with a wall of fire/bayonets.
Conversely cannons attempted to break your formation and make you easier targets for cavalry/enemy infantry to pick off.

Stragglers and cannons were easy(ish) pickings for cavalry, formations/groups easy pickings for cannons and a good formation of infantry ready to fire the scourge of cavalry etc Good use of either 3 could sometimes turn a battle depending terrain/teams/skill etc.

A bayonet/Cavalry rush at the right moment of a good volley of cannon/muskets at the right time could turn an engagement between 2 groups.

All the game can do is try and encourage people to stick together by encouraging a sense of vulnerability when on your own and reward when in groups. Muskets should be inaccurate enough to encourage line firing and not discourage groups/formations. Cavalry should be there to exploit any weaknesses in formations/infantry/unguarded cannons (nothing better than seeing infantry scramble to line up shoulder to shoulder when they see cav)  while cannons should be aiming to break those formations for cavalry/other infantry to swoop in and attack.   

Some Napoleon quotes for fun:

  • Artillery is more essential to cavalry than to infantry, because cavalry has no fire for its defense, but depends on the sabre.
  • It is the business of cavalry to follow up the victory, and to prevent the beaten army from rallying.
  • Charges of cavalry are equally useful at the beginning, the middle and the end of a battle. They should be made always, if possible, on the flanks of the infantry, escpecially when the latter is engaged in front.
  • Great battles are won with artillery.
  • The worse the troops the greater the need of artillery.
  • God is on the side with the best artillery
Very much agree with everything! :-)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 03:23:29 pm by Elkjær »

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Offline Nurdbot

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2017, 04:16:41 pm »
All very well and good combined arms is being embraced, but I want to know how light infantry and rifles will work in all this.

Offline Rejenorst

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2017, 10:03:20 am »
When you say embraced; I should re-iterate that this is just my opinion(s)/my vision(s)/my hope(s) or suggestion(s) for the future. How the game turns out may be different and is in the hands of the core developers; who as I understand will and have been asking for feedback/suggestions from the community.

As for how I would like to see light infantry operating in all of this:

ultimately your light infantry are skirmishers who can act independently from the line infantry for recon, skirmishing and drawing away resources from the enemy towards dealing with them. They likely historically operated in both loose skirmish and tighter formations so pushing light infantry into formations isn't specifically necessary but hopefully fear of cav and other melee infantry will push them to do so. Historically they weren't really intended to engage head on but where more used as harassment/skirmisher/recon forces to prepare the way for the line infantry (varies from unit to unit some where indeed front-liners I am sure).

I would like to see Light infantry weapons with some increased accuracy but not so much that its over the top. Game play needs to come first. It would be good if the light infantry can choose to have the following:

A choice of either:
  • Smooth-bore musket decreased reload times (probably no bayonet to discourage melee with the class?)
  • Rifle with increased loading times but more accuracy and no bayonet (rifles to be available to units where historically accurate I would assume) 

Movement speed increase for the light infantry is fine and should encourage moving ahead of the Line Infantry BUT I don't want to see someone delaying an entire line battle because they can outrun everyone else and run all around the map as the last person alive (have seen this happen before). I think the speed bonus should require other light troops to be nearby if that's possible which might also help to get light infantry groups to stick together to each other and not Rambo out to much or/and would be nice to see a reduction in time left if only a few people are left alive. The fear of cav alone with melee penalties should hopefully push most infantry groups including light to act together. Just my thoughts and I am sure there are better ideas out there.

Nice video on light infantry of that era but mainly about Hungarian/Austrian troops.
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 10:05:09 am by Rejenorst »

Offline Truth

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2017, 11:53:46 am »
This looks like it's getting better & better :D

Offline Nurdbot

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2017, 01:42:04 pm »
Rather than dedicate hours of design to prevent delayers from delaying, do consider instead creating a game mode that requires teamwork and positive activity/ground occupation lead to victory instead of killing to the last man which is just plain dumb especially for this games era.

Also, you are always going to get jack asses that will troll and try to ruin peoples fun. To prevent this simply having a good admin interface to deal with problems and having a no nonsense tight knit community that doesn't encourage such things will work in the long run as no matter what mechanics that will be in place via design somebody with too much time on their hands will find a way to grief. It is the human condition I am afraid.

I just don't see anyone mentioning their own version of close range hip firing if the need arises. Sticking together and volleying another line makes sense (at least for the first volley before independent fire kicks in) but nobody addresses how this effects the conditions on the crowded deck of a shop or in close out of the blue melee. Apologies for taking things off topic now but I feel if people are going to discuss musket mechanics for the game they should cover all things not just line infantry slugging it out in lines or columns :).



Offline Rejenorst

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2017, 02:24:26 pm »
Yeah definitely agree that the game modes should be key in eliminating some of the incentives to do some of that stupid crap and then have admins deal with the rest. I am pretty certain battles will return as a game mode but they won't be the only game mode. I was just thinking of my experiences in NW when we used to have to chase people down right at the end of a LB lol so yeah if the devs flesh out the game types to avoid such problems would definitely be better than focusing energy on specifically targeting a negative behavior. Example would be having to hold a specific area of map toward end of game or when %age of team a dead to try and focus the battle. This was done in MB already to some extent I think and in NW as well. I am sure the community will have plenty of ideas and suggestions to push for better gameplay in that area.

In terms of hip firing; I guess half the tension of NW was knowing when to fire and when to melee. I did on occasion find it annoying in NW that it would take a second to switch to melee before you could attack (got me killed more than once). I guess this was done to avoid cheap shots at close range when the enemy is quite close in game and to encourage melee. Hip fire... just doesn't seem like cricket though. :D

Ship combat; if that's what your referring to in terms of crowded deck, I suspect will likely be a lot more chaotic. Crews will probably be working together as a group as is (or so I would hope).

But anyway I am talking about ideas of what to aim for to encourage period like behavior of groups sticking together rather than individual melee/firing mechanics. Mechanics is not my area of expertise :P
 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 02:28:26 pm by Rejenorst »

Offline Coldstreamer

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2017, 03:24:53 pm »
Yeah definitely agree that the game modes should be key in eliminating some of the incentives to do some of that stupid crap and then have admins deal with the rest. I am pretty certain battles will return as a game mode but they won't be the only game mode. I was just thinking of my experiences in NW when we used to have to chase people down right at the end of a LB lol so yeah if the devs flesh out the game types to avoid such problems would definitely be better than focusing energy on specifically targeting a negative behavior. Example would be having to hold a specific area of map toward end of game or when %age of team a dead to try and focus the battle. This was done in MB already to some extent I think and in NW as well. I am sure the community will have plenty of ideas and suggestions to push for better gameplay in that area.

In terms of hip firing; I guess half the tension of NW was knowing when to fire and when to melee. I did on occasion find it annoying in NW that it would take a second to switch to melee before you could attack (got me killed more than once). I guess this was done to avoid cheap shots at close range when the enemy is quite close in game and to encourage melee. Hip fire... just doesn't seem like cricket though. :D

Ship combat; if that's what your referring to in terms of crowded deck, I suspect will likely be a lot more chaotic. Crews will probably be working together as a group as is (or so I would hope).

But anyway I am talking about ideas of what to aim for to encourage period like behavior of groups sticking together rather than individual melee/firing mechanics. Mechanics is not my area of expertise :P

Chaotic crews would be great, since it adds more of historical mental environment :)

Offline Nurdbot

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2017, 04:25:09 pm »
I am 100% down for anything that encourages people to stick together and work as a team too, I hope crewing the bigger boats will be the ultimate test in team work ;).


Offline Harris1815

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2017, 02:39:57 am »
I would like to see Light infantry weapons with some increased accuracy but not so much that its over the top. Game play needs to come first. It would be good if the light infantry can choose to have the following:

A choice of either:
  • Smooth-bore musket decreased reload times (probably no bayonet to discourage melee with the class?)
  • Rifle with increased loading times but more accuracy and no bayonet (rifles to be available to units where historically accurate I would assume) 


But Rejenorst light infantry did have bayonets. (I understand for Balance purposes that Light infantry can't be strong against line but wasn't that the point of having them in the war as recon especially when armies were retreating Rifleman would be at the end to shoot off incoming Cav or light infantry chasing them down) Also heres an Idea: What if lets say a Light infantry man fixed a bayonet but he would have the accuracy of Line and for Rifleman it doesn't allow them to shoot or accuracy falls of significantly.
God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best  ~  Voltaire

Offline Rejenorst

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2017, 07:16:13 am »
But Rejenorst light infantry did have bayonets. (I understand for Balance purposes that Light infantry can't be strong against line but wasn't that the point of having them in the war as recon especially when armies were retreating Rifleman would be at the end to shoot off incoming Cav or light infantry chasing them down)

I know they did but like you said its about balance and trying to give advantages/disadvantages to classes to make them unique enough so that there isn't a situation where being light infantry just ends up outweighing being line infantry.


Quote
Also heres an Idea: What if lets say a Light infantry man fixed a bayonet but he would have the accuracy of Line and for Rifleman it doesn't allow them to shoot or accuracy falls of significantly.

Capitalizing on your idea here; historically at least with the Baker rifle the sword bayonet resulted in a decrease of accuracy and apparently came under criticism (later on it was changed to socket bayonet I believe). Maybe while the bayonet is attached for muskets the accuracy reverts to line infantry levels like you say and for rifles the accuracy is decreased. Interesting video on this (though the result is that there's no appreciable difference) still for balance sake might be a good idea.  Alternatively a sword bayonet could cause a long delay in reload times which seems to be an issue in the video :
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I am not sure what the final product will be with light infantry but its an interesting idea I guess for devs to look at. At the moment light infantry (according to dev blog) will have bayonets and/or swords.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 07:20:40 am by Rejenorst »

Offline Harris1815

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2017, 05:01:16 pm »
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I know they did but like you said its about balance and trying to give advantages/disadvantages to classes to make them unique enough so that there isn't a situation where being light infantry just ends up outweighing being line infantry.


Quote
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Capitalizing on your idea here; historically at least with the Baker rifle the sword bayonet resulted in a decrease of accuracy and apparently came under criticism (later on it was changed to socket bayonet I believe). Maybe while the bayonet is attached for muskets the accuracy reverts to line infantry levels like you say and for rifles the accuracy is decreased. Interesting video on this (though the result is that there's no appreciable difference) still for balance sake might be a good idea.  Alternatively a sword bayonet could cause a long delay in reload times which seems to be an issue in the video :
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I am not sure what the final product will be with light infantry but its an interesting idea I guess for devs to look at. At the moment light infantry (according to dev blog) will have bayonets and/or swords.

Awesome I just wanted to make sure because the Rifleman did have bayonets but honestly it was really a last resort for 95th or RGJ but They mention in the sharpe books they do use them against Cav when they charged them once and they actually one.

Edit: Tap Reload?
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God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best  ~  Voltaire

Offline Nurdbot

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2017, 05:25:27 pm »
I thinK Rifles and light infantry should have bayonets and the moment they put them on their accuracy going down hill makes sense. Line Infantry muskets shouldn't have this issue and their bayonets should always be on.

Also re the balance with the lack of Rifles on the side of France, I've been thinking. Surely they must have had some Spanish or German hunters working with them at some point?

Offline McLovin

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2017, 06:42:35 pm »
How about this position for the rifles? Where they lay on their back and put the gun strap over their feet to get a more accurate shot (dont know the name, if there is one)

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Offline Jelly

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2017, 07:20:20 pm »
How about this position for the rifles? Where they lay on their back and put the gun strap over their feet to get a more accurate shot (dont know the name, if there is one)

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the Plunket position, so named after the rifleman in the 95th who shot a French officer from this position

Offline Bluehawk

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Re: Developer Blog 10 - 2-Gun Schooner. A worthy adversary
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2017, 07:34:31 pm »
Pfft, Plunkett didn't invent the supine position. Check out these Japanese prints from 1612.

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« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 07:37:37 pm by Bluehawk »