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Author Topic: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship  (Read 4116 times)

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Online Jackson

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2017, 02:20:09 am »
Those are both modern images.

Here are a few contemporary ones:

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« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 02:24:41 am by Jackson »
-Freelance character designer for Holdfast: Nations At War.

Offline Bluehawk

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2017, 04:13:20 am »
This guy must be a stickler.

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Offline Harris1815

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2017, 04:20:14 am »
This guy must be a stickler.

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Dumb French spies always interested in Plumes.
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Many pictures are saying they have plumes including reenactors
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 04:36:02 am by Harris1815 »
God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best  ~  Voltaire

Online Jackson

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2017, 04:48:46 am »
I didn't say they didn't have plumes. I said the plumes seem generally not to have been worn as part of the service uniform. The opinions of unsourced modern images and reenactors are worth very little. You'll have to present some actual evidence to change my mind.

This guy must be a stickler.

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I assume the non-standard feather plume is to help identify him as an NCO.
-Freelance character designer for Holdfast: Nations At War.

Offline Bravescot

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2017, 06:21:18 am »
I wasn't argueing the point on the plums being worn on deck any more. I was argueing your bold statement about the abolishment of the flank comanpies in 1804 when all the reading I've done (as someone wishing to join the RMs) says nothing about such a thing.
This guy must be a stickler.

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I assume the non-standard feather plume is to help identify him as an NCO.
I don't see any hints of any chevrons on his sleeves.

Online Jackson

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2017, 09:29:09 am »
I misspoke. I meant to write that the flank company uniform distinctions were abolished.

I don't see any hints of any chevrons on his sleeves.

The other guy's arm is covering the only part of the sleeve that would have chevrons. Also note the sash.
-Freelance character designer for Holdfast: Nations At War.

Offline Olafson

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2017, 12:47:50 pm »
Don't ever take reenactors as a source. Most of them are very wrong in a lot of things they do. A lot of times they might even know about it, but just do not care enough to change it...

I am guessing that it also is not too unlikely that a lot of NCOS did not wear any insignia on ships, due to the likelihood of being spotted and shot at first. Remember, warfare on ships and warfare on land are two almost completely different things.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 12:50:06 pm by Olafson »

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Offline Bravescot

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2017, 03:59:20 pm »
I misspoke. I meant to write that the flank company uniform distinctions were abolished.
I'm still inclined to disagree. The Royal Marines on deck might have ditched their plums due to lack of need and what have you but the Royal Marines still had 3 Battalions that were organised like line infantry. Quote from a brilliant book called "Birth of the Royal Marines, 1664 - 1802" by Britt Zerbe says the following on the purpose of R.M. flank companies. "The first echelon of the landing force was usually composed of the 'elite' forces of the eighteenth-century military, the flank companies." Would be hard to use your flank companies if you abolished the uniform distinction. (Namely the plumes)

Though the Marines in a ship's company needed no company distinctions the men in the 3 Battalions did. This company designation still lasted on in the Marines right into the Crimea when in 1855 the main Battalions were renamed to The Royal Marines Light Infantry (Later in 1862 having a slight tweak to Royal Marine Light Infantry) and deck bound Marines were kept as Royal Marines (though service on deck became limited until 1914)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 04:00:57 pm by Bravescot »

Offline Painmace

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2017, 05:07:28 pm »
I misspoke. I meant to write that the flank company uniform distinctions were abolished.
I'm still inclined to disagree. The Royal Marines on deck might have ditched their plums due to lack of need and what have you but the Royal Marines still had 3 Battalions that were organised like line infantry. Quote from a brilliant book called "Birth of the Royal Marines, 1664 - 1802" by Britt Zerbe says the following on the purpose of R.M. flank companies. "The first echelon of the landing force was usually composed of the 'elite' forces of the eighteenth-century military, the flank companies." Would be hard to use your flank companies if you abolished the uniform distinction. (Namely the plumes)

Though the Marines in a ship's company needed no company distinctions the men in the 3 Battalions did. This company designation still lasted on in the Marines right into the Crimea when in 1855 the main Battalions were renamed to The Royal Marines Light Infantry (Later in 1862 having a slight tweak to Royal Marine Light Infantry) and deck bound Marines were kept as Royal Marines (though service on deck became limited until 1914)

What about the gap 1802-1855?
Jackson mentioned it not being used 1804, in that gap its completely possible that they didnt use any plumes but later changed their minds   ;)


Offline Bravescot

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2017, 05:36:39 pm »
I misspoke. I meant to write that the flank company uniform distinctions were abolished.
I'm still inclined to disagree. The Royal Marines on deck might have ditched their plums due to lack of need and what have you but the Royal Marines still had 3 Battalions that were organised like line infantry. Quote from a brilliant book called "Birth of the Royal Marines, 1664 - 1802" by Britt Zerbe says the following on the purpose of R.M. flank companies. "The first echelon of the landing force was usually composed of the 'elite' forces of the eighteenth-century military, the flank companies." Would be hard to use your flank companies if you abolished the uniform distinction. (Namely the plumes)

Though the Marines in a ship's company needed no company distinctions the men in the 3 Battalions did. This company designation still lasted on in the Marines right into the Crimea when in 1855 the main Battalions were renamed to The Royal Marines Light Infantry (Later in 1862 having a slight tweak to Royal Marine Light Infantry) and deck bound Marines were kept as Royal Marines (though service on deck became limited until 1914)

What about the gap 1802-1855?
Jackson mentioned it not being used 1804, in that gap its completely possible that they didnt use any plumes but later changed their minds   ;)
Aye but I brought up image depicting Marine from 1805. However he poo pooped those so here is a more contemporary one from 1814
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As well as a good little one of the R.M. Changing of the guards. Doubt the RMs would get their own uniform wrong.
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 05:43:04 pm by Bravescot »

Offline Harris1815

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2017, 06:03:02 pm »
Awesome video Bravescot
God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best  ~  Voltaire

Offline Bluehawk

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2017, 06:37:56 pm »
I hate to be "that guy", but the metadata says that watercolour was painted in 1890.

https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/item/bdr:251125/

Offline AgentMWolf

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2017, 07:11:51 pm »
There are many books about the British Uniforms, but i have 0 of them (not yet that is). So i do not know if any other Forum member has a book(or books) about the British Uniforms around 1800-1815 that can help us with this. Mabye (baby) the Plumes can be in the game later (or not) but for now i am really happy with with the progress of the game.

Offline Bravescot

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2017, 07:14:37 pm »
I hate to be "that guy", but the metadata says that watercolour was painted in 1890.

https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/item/bdr:251125/
Okay, you're right on that one. Where I found it said it was made in 1830.

Offline Irahi

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Re: Developer Blog 6 - Sailors & Marines. Crew your ship
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2017, 08:13:35 pm »
I hate to be "that guy", but the metadata says that watercolour was painted in 1890.

https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/item/bdr:251125/
Okay, you're right on that one. Where I found it said it was made in 1830.
lel xD so many points of view