Anvil Game Studios

Holdfast: Nations At War => Game Discussion => Suggestions & Feedback => Topic started by: Saga on January 26, 2018, 09:11:19 pm

Title: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Saga on January 26, 2018, 09:11:19 pm
On various days we tested the upcoming Hardcore mode with a number of Regiments.
For those who were there provide your input bellow.
Based on the summary, those who were not there feel free to drop your suggestions as well.

What is the Hardcore mode?
The purpose of the hardcore mode is to give back to the organised side of the community by creating a mode that encourages more realistic close range combat that allows for more advanced maneuvers, and discourages sitting back while shooting at a distance.

Revealed Features

Summary of what was tested.

Main Points

Game mode is released, discussion points removed.

Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Kelvin on January 26, 2018, 09:13:19 pm
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/450/154/820.jpeg)
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on January 26, 2018, 09:16:19 pm
Interested to see where this goes. What did the mode entail?
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Jackson on January 27, 2018, 12:35:56 am
The standard British cartridge box held 60 rounds. Why 25?
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Intel Guardian on January 27, 2018, 12:43:49 am
The British didn't use hardcore mode then did they Sonny Jim.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Rivet on January 27, 2018, 12:20:27 pm
- putting on and removing the bayonet
- misfires

That should come in Hardcore mode
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Saga on January 27, 2018, 06:00:48 pm
The standard British cartridge box held 60 rounds. Why 25?
- putting on and removing the bayonet
- misfires

That should come in Hardcore mode
I think that the Hardcore mode should be more of a competitive rather than a realism mode. Reducing ammo to 25 would put pressure on units to conserve their ammo and would add a resupply element to the game.

Fixing and unfixing bayonets sounds good but that would also require melee animations for a musket without a bayonet which I doubt would make it in time for this patch.

I think misfires is a good discussion to have since it would add RNG, and personally i'm not too keen on adding any more randomness into the game. But I understand why people would want it for realism sake.

one of my guys voiced voiced this opinion yesterday so I added it to the post.
The habits of aiming in arcade mode would not be transferable to Hardcore if drop is increased, however according to Refleax the damage values can be changed as an alternative meaning that aiming habits would not be affected in that case.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Harry on January 27, 2018, 08:14:26 pm
Adding RNG based features such as misfires into a competitive orientated gamemode seems counter-intuitive to me.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Absol on January 27, 2018, 08:17:55 pm
Adding RNG based features such as misfires into a competitive orientated gamemode seems counter-intuitive to me.
It makes sense for a 'hardcore' gamemode.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Diabolika on January 27, 2018, 09:32:57 pm
The reduction to musket accuracy (+drop) felt a bit unrewarding.
I'm in favor of reducing damage based on distance rather than decreasing accuracy.
This way marksmen still get to feel a sense of accomplishment.
Long distance strategies are still possible, but not as rewarding.

Realism is cool, but doesn't always make for good game features.
RNG should be considered carefully, but can play a part.
Eg. instead of misfires you could introduce jams, which would add a small timer to reloading.

Reduced ammo is an interesting idea, if you have means of resupplying.
Eg. make ammo lootable from enemies.
This would award/encourage aggressive play and create objectives.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Harry on January 28, 2018, 01:04:04 pm
Adding RNG based features such as misfires into a competitive orientated gamemode seems counter-intuitive to me.
It makes sense for a 'hardcore' gamemode.

What would it even add to the game? RNG mechanics are seriously lame in gamemodes, particularly one that is more tailor made to an organised competitive scene.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Rivet on January 28, 2018, 05:17:31 pm
The situation is quite clear.

If hardcore mode = competitive, misfires are not a desirable factor.
If hardcore mode = realism, the answer is obvious.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Absol on January 28, 2018, 07:17:29 pm
The situation is quite clear.

If hardcore mode = competitive, misfires are not a desirable factor.
If hardcore mode = realism, the answer is obvious.
Exactly. If you want it to be competitive, then it shouldn't have misfires and RNG, but if you want it to be realistic it should have RNG.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Royalty on January 28, 2018, 09:19:15 pm
- putting on and removing the bayonet
- misfires

That should come in Hardcore mode

Agreed,  I much prefer the "realism" aspects.  Anything to reduce the long range sniping rounds will be much welcomed.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Banjolord on January 28, 2018, 09:23:07 pm
The situation is quite clear.

If hardcore mode = competitive, misfires are not a desirable factor.
If hardcore mode = realism, the answer is obvious.
Exactly. If you want it to be competitive, then it shouldn't have misfires and RNG, but if you want it to be realistic it should have RNG.
To be totally honest misfires weren't all that common, only if it was rainy weather mainly.
 If you were to add it for rainy weather I would understand but not as a standard basis for "hardcore" mode in my opinion.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Bluehawk on January 28, 2018, 09:44:39 pm
They could also be caused by successive firing without cleaning the musket, from fouling clogging the vent or the flint being chipped from successive strikes against the frizzen. If a misfire mechanic could be made to increase in probability with such successive shot (and resetting when the player dies and respawns), it could create a natural and gradual incentive to not hang back behind cover and fire off all 60 (or 25) cartridges all day long, and it wouldn't be as frustrating as a purely flat probability of whatever-percent, since the player would know why his musket was failing on him.

If that system is in place, then you could give light infantry classes the bonus of a less severe increase in misfires so that they're free to skirmish for longer periods of time.

Speaking of fouling, you could also make the reload time for muskets gradually increase, as the bore becomes progressively tighter against the ball with frequent shooting. This may or may not accompany a temporary increase in accuracy as well.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Secian on January 28, 2018, 09:52:46 pm
If we're doing a competitive mode, then I'd say zero rng for things like misfires. Imagine a line cresting over and half of them get an rng misfire and the opposing line decimates them. Did it happen back then, probably, but this is a game. Maybe have three modes, Arcade, Historical, Competitive/Hardcore.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: TooL69 on January 29, 2018, 05:24:21 pm
stupid mode...
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Mark on January 29, 2018, 06:45:56 pm
The purpose of the mode is to add a more competitive element to the game, rather than offering a different "realistic" game mode. As such, things such as misfires and other RNG-related features are definitely not desirable in my opinion.

Competitive refers primarily to linebattles: right now the meta of the game heavily favors camping the largest hill and firing continuously at range, which I personally do not enjoy. Reducing the long range (160m+) accuracy and reducing the ammo count should help to force regiments into medium-to-short range linebattles which are much more engaging and fun for everyone involved.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Lord Blakeney on January 31, 2018, 02:40:46 pm
The reduction to musket accuracy (+drop) felt a bit unrewarding.
I'm in favor of reducing damage based on distance rather than decreasing accuracy.
This way marksmen still get to feel a sense of accomplishment.
Long distance strategies are still possible, but not as rewarding.

Realism is cool, but doesn't always make for good game features.
RNG should be considered carefully, but can play a part.
Eg. instead of misfires you could introduce jams, which would add a small timer to reloading.

Reduced ammo is an interesting idea, if you have means of resupplying.
Eg. make ammo lootable from enemies.
This would award/encourage aggressive play and create objectives.

I agree with reducing damage based on distance over decreased accuracy.


It doesn't seem clear if Hardcore Mode is trying to be competitive or more realistic. I don't think a combination of both is going to cause the desired effect.

Obviously, it would be good to see people playing in tighter areas as opposed to groups firing from distant hilltops or individuals walking the edge of the map to snipe.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Mousecatcher on January 31, 2018, 10:06:34 pm
This "hardcore", as I understand whole idea is really nothing than "competive mode" to make linebattling community happy (or happier). Little bit more hardcore then vanilla (to reinforce need of skill and teamplay, make good challenge) but still no too over-top with realism and historism, still DYNAMIC and fun, as game to play online in pvp.

Also limitations of game engine and development recources must be considered (we can't go too fancy with fantasies).

In this framework, what I seen during test and what we need.

- I love to see longer living smoke (may be bit thicker), this will add some tactical considerations during extensive firefights.
- Generaly ballistics are okay with more drop, I liked it, combat feels better. Not so many sick 200 m headshots, but they still happen. Its likely matter of time when everyone will learn arcs better (to some extent, at least). I think we need little bit more spead after 100 m.
- Pistols need to be "nerfed" too, officers literaly sniping with them from crazy utterly unrealistic distances sometimes.
- Most elements of HUD can be force-hidden (like ammo count and minimap) in this mode.
- New line-battle friendly maps, not just open grassy fields, but whith some tactical challenge (in good sense).

- ALSO it will be very cool to have some kind of detailed after battle statistic by whole regiment (reading from tags), like shots fired, % of hits, kills, headshots, melee kills, teamkills and so on.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: TooL69 on February 06, 2018, 05:25:39 pm
This "hardcore", as I understand whole idea is really nothing than "competive mode" to make linebattling community happy (or happier). Little bit more hardcore then vanilla (to reinforce need of skill and teamplay, make good challenge) but still no too over-top with realism and historism, still DYNAMIC and fun, as game to play online in pvp.

Also limitations of game engine and development recources must be considered (we can't go too fancy with fantasies).

In this framework, what I seen during test and what we need.

- I love to see longer living smoke (may be bit thicker), this will add some tactical considerations during extensive firefights.
- Generaly ballistics are okay with more drop, I liked it, combat feels better. Not so many sick 200 m headshots, but they still happen. Its likely matter of time when everyone will learn arcs better (to some extent, at least). I think we need little bit more spead after 100 m.
- Pistols need to be "nerfed" too, officers literaly sniping with them from crazy utterly unrealistic distances sometimes.
- Most elements of HUD can be force-hidden (like ammo count and minimap) in this mode.
- New line-battle friendly maps, not just open grassy fields, but whith some tactical challenge (in good sense).

- ALSO it will be very cool to have some kind of detailed after battle statistic by whole regiment (reading from tags), like shots fired, % of hits, kills, headshots, melee kills, teamkills and so on.

Why make the ballistics of muskets worse? I never understood this desire ..
Do not you like killing from 200 meters? But this does not contradict real history. The muskets were killed at such a distance.
In the game War of Rigts rifles do not interfere with the conduct of linear battles.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Cristnogol on February 07, 2018, 05:28:43 pm
If the purpose of the hardcore mode is to give back to the organized side of the community, then giving up realism factors is necessary to help promote  more aggressive and eventful linebattles. Hardcore mode should to a much possible to minimize RNG mechanics and enable competitive gameplay between organized lines. The skill of the infantry in the line, in shooting and melee, and the tactfulness of maneuvering the line in relative close quarters should have impact.

Long range engagements should not be effective at all, if we wanted to fight for hours in one round then being more realistic would be important. 15 minute rounds cannot be competitive without hardcore mode focusing on forcing lines closer to each other.

I would think regiments would want hardcore mode to be competitive in this sense of forcing more CQC combat rather than realism.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: VetroG on February 07, 2018, 06:18:14 pm
Seems pretty fun tbh
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Intel Guardian on February 07, 2018, 07:10:01 pm
I think the best improvement that could be made to this gamemode would be to rename it to competitive mode, as it would more properly represent what it is (or aims to be).
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Refleax on February 07, 2018, 08:05:36 pm
I think the best improvement that could be made to this gamemode would be to rename it to competitive mode, as it would more properly represent what it is (or aims to be).

I was considering that when we first started designing this, however, we've gone for something else since the 'Hardcore' game type will also be present on an official Assault (Single Life) server we'll be launching with the next update.



- ALSO it will be very cool to have some kind of detailed after battle statistic by whole regiment (reading from tags), like shots fired, % of hits, kills, headshots, melee kills, teamkills and so on.


Great idea! We may not be able to fit it in anytime soon but it's definitely something I'd like to look into in the future.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Absol on February 08, 2018, 01:14:29 am
I think the best improvement that could be made to this gamemode would be to rename it to competitive mode, as it would more properly represent what it is (or aims to be).

I was considering that when we first started designing this, however, we've gone for something else since the 'Hardcore' game type will also be present on an official Assault (Single Life) server we'll be launching with the next update.



- ALSO it will be very cool to have some kind of detailed after battle statistic by whole regiment (reading from tags), like shots fired, % of hits, kills, headshots, melee kills, teamkills and so on.


Great idea! We may not be able to fit it in anytime soon but it's definitely something I'd like to look into in the future.
Very nice! Does this mean that the Regiments tab will be added to the game in this update?
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Refleax on February 08, 2018, 01:47:02 am
I think the best improvement that could be made to this gamemode would be to rename it to competitive mode, as it would more properly represent what it is (or aims to be).

I was considering that when we first started designing this, however, we've gone for something else since the 'Hardcore' game type will also be present on an official Assault (Single Life) server we'll be launching with the next update.



- ALSO it will be very cool to have some kind of detailed after battle statistic by whole regiment (reading from tags), like shots fired, % of hits, kills, headshots, melee kills, teamkills and so on.


Great idea! We may not be able to fit it in anytime soon but it's definitely something I'd like to look into in the future.
Very nice! Does this mean that the Regiments tab will be added to the game in this update?

Not in this one but instead we'll be temporarily linking that button to the 'Crews & Regiments' section on our forums. You better start planning ahead to keep your threads active! New players looking to join one will be browsing that forum section more often.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Absol on February 08, 2018, 01:59:16 am
I think the best improvement that could be made to this gamemode would be to rename it to competitive mode, as it would more properly represent what it is (or aims to be).

I was considering that when we first started designing this, however, we've gone for something else since the 'Hardcore' game type will also be present on an official Assault (Single Life) server we'll be launching with the next update.



- ALSO it will be very cool to have some kind of detailed after battle statistic by whole regiment (reading from tags), like shots fired, % of hits, kills, headshots, melee kills, teamkills and so on.


Great idea! We may not be able to fit it in anytime soon but it's definitely something I'd like to look into in the future.
Very nice! Does this mean that the Regiments tab will be added to the game in this update?

Not in this one but instead we'll be temporarily linking that button to the 'Crews & Regiments' section on our forums. You better start planning ahead to keep your threads active! New players looking to join one will be browsing that forum section more often.
Awesome!
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Intel Guardian on February 09, 2018, 02:58:28 pm
On a related note, are the devs thinking about creating a realistic game mode? I'm sure that many of the ideas in this thread that don't fit into a competitive gamemode would fit into that.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Samurai on March 05, 2018, 04:14:05 pm
Honestly, I hate the bullet drop change. It should have been more decrease to damage outside of 60m.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: LePoof on March 14, 2018, 03:04:14 pm
I prefer normal mode, the transition is so painful due to the accuracy of the weapons being drastically different(which is hard enough in normal mode already to learn). Decreased ammo make no sense if a kit, is a kit(are we poorly supplied in hardcore mode?). Now it is the only mode Line Battles are played in so you have to spend time training in Hard core mode to relearn your aim points only to leave the line battle, join a Public Server bringing you back to the old aim points(I am to old for this I guess).
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Saga on March 21, 2018, 11:40:45 pm
I feel like accuracy should be the same in all modes but damage over range should be reduced to encourage CQC in Hardcore. Its a hassle to adjust.
Give surgeons limited use bandages for balance in this case as well.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Takerith on March 24, 2018, 04:36:34 pm
I don't think a reduction in damage over longer ranges will really do much. Most musket kills at extreme ranges are from headshots, which seem to always be a one-hit kill anyway, so people will continue to hang back and go for those lucky shots.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Absol on March 24, 2018, 05:43:35 pm
I don't think a reduction in damage over longer ranges will really do much. Most musket kills at extreme ranges are from headshots, which seem to always be a one-hit kill anyway, so people will continue to hang back and go for those lucky shots.
But having accuracy being different makes it so that you can't practice your aim in normal mode, and playing normal mode will throw you off for hardcore.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on March 24, 2018, 06:48:07 pm
This is the reason for low ammo. Makes it necessary to make your shots count.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Dairus on March 24, 2018, 07:00:09 pm
if you have trouble with your aiming then go into melee or close range  ::)

btw, dont you have a server where you can train hardcore mode???
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nr.9 Noble on March 25, 2018, 03:27:48 am
I believe that there should be a massive drop off of damage at X range. Since hardcore mode makes the bullet drop off greater, it can be learned just like normal mode essentially making the changes null. If you cause the damage to begin dropping at say 60, then exponentially decrease it to a point at say 200 meters where bullets do virtually no damage, this will incentivize the officer to move their line closer. This could solve the camping problem better than increasing bullet drop ever could and could maybe even be integrated into normal mode on the pub servers, preventing riflemen from sitting back and sniping as many players complain about.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Samurai on March 25, 2018, 03:33:47 am
Most musket kills at extreme ranges are from headshots, which seem to always be a one-hit kill anyway...

I think the damage reduction outside of 60m should be such that head shots outside of 100m would not be one-hit kills.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Absol on March 25, 2018, 03:52:31 am
Most musket kills at extreme ranges are from headshots, which seem to always be a one-hit kill anyway...

I think the damage reduction outside of 60m should be such that head shots outside of 100m would not be one-hit kills.
I like this idea. It increases the usefulness of the surgeon.
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on March 25, 2018, 06:48:30 am
I believe that there should be a massive drop off of damage at X range. Since hardcore mode makes the bullet drop off greater, it can be learned just like normal mode essentially making the changes null. If you cause the damage to begin dropping at say 60, then exponentially decrease it to a point at say 200 meters where bullets do virtually no damage, this will incentivize the officer to move their line closer. This could solve the camping problem better than increasing bullet drop ever could and could maybe even be integrated into normal mode on the pub servers, preventing riflemen from sitting back and sniping as many players complain about.

This is a good point. + 1
Title: Re: Hardcore Mode: Discussion Thread
Post by: Saga on March 25, 2018, 06:40:58 pm
I believe that there should be a massive drop off of damage at X range. Since hardcore mode makes the bullet drop off greater, it can be learned just like normal mode essentially making the changes null. If you cause the damage to begin dropping at say 60, then exponentially decrease it to a point at say 200 meters where bullets do virtually no damage, this will incentivize the officer to move their line closer. This could solve the camping problem better than increasing bullet drop ever could and could maybe even be integrated into normal mode on the pub servers, preventing riflemen from sitting back and sniping as many players complain about.
+1
The master strat...
"Put the bottom of the reticle half way up the mountains at the part where they intersect"