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Author Topic: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat  (Read 1040 times)

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Offline SwydeBarca

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[Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« on: July 22, 2017, 07:16:27 pm »
Disclaimer: These suggestions are based on my current knowledge of confirmed mechanics. I am too lazy to verify my facts, but not lazy enough not to write them down, so some of these points might already be in the game.

These are my suggestions for Naval Combat that I came up with talking to other members.

Major changes:

Cannon ball physics: Physics for cannon ball that allow them to bounce or glance off objects.  Hulls were curved so that light shots, and even heavier shots, would be deflected and wouldn't penetrate the armour. Raking was also very effective because the shots would often bounce off cannons, masts, etc. meaning that it would travel back and forth along the length of the ship, killing crew and damaging equipment.

These 2 things were a big part of naval combat, and I would love to see them in action in HoldFast.

Damage system: This one is probably a confirmed feature, but I'm gonna include it anyway. Simply have damage dealt to the different sections of the ship have different effects on it's handling and survival.

Damage below the water line would cause the ship to take in water. Damage to the sails and masts would reduce the sailing efficiency, and demast the ship if the mast takes too much damage. Damage to the rudder would reduce the ship turning rate and damage to the pump would reduce the pump's efficiency. All of these damages should be repairable (except maybe rudder damage).

Raising/Lowering the sails: Probably the feature that is the most lacking at the moment. Have the sails raised, lowered and turned manually by the crew. Simply have a rope on opposite sides to raise and lower the riggings, one system for each mast. Minimum of 2 sailors required to use (1 on each side), and voilà, you have a crude but working and realistic riggings system.

Minor points:

Splinters: The biggest killer (or at least wounder) was splinters. Most people weren't killed or wounded by cannon balls, they were injured by the splinters they caused.

Heeling: Suggestion of Karshaw, ships would heel a few degrees on either side because of the wind and waves. Holes that were previously above the water line would be submerged and start to leak.

Failing cannons: Another leading cause of injury was cannons exploding. There were many causes for that, maybe the sponger didn't remove all the black powder, but in any case it would cause horrible burns to the arms and face. You could make a religion out of that.

Fire: It was one of the 3 most frequent way that ships would sink, along with combat and storms. Fire aboard a ship was terrible and terrifying, it is a must.

Cannon in the distance: Courtesy of James Brock, a fellow Canadian. Being able to hear the soft thump of cannons in the distance would add a lot to the immersion. Cheers mate  ;)


Lateen vs Square-Rigged: Pretty simple change, lateen should be better at close-hauled, while square-rigged should be better at running.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 06:02:55 pm by SwydeBarca »

Offline GovernerPancake

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2017, 03:47:18 pm »
I'm guessing splinters would be kind of hard to implement, but what could happen is an explosion animation and then anyone within the radius (depending on the distance) would take damage? Love the suggestions though! :D

Offline SwydeBarca

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2017, 05:08:18 pm »
I'm guessing splinters would be kind of hard to implement, but what could happen is an explosion animation and then anyone within the radius (depending on the distance) would take damage? Love the suggestions though! :D

Ye, doing individual splitters would be really hard on the engine and don't bring much more compared to the other solutions there are. I was more thinking of having half a dozen bigger splitters or a damage radius (like you said). It would still recreate the sensation of splitters without dropping your performances by 90%. :P

Offline Karshaw

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2017, 05:59:45 pm »
My thoughts exactly! I've been waiting for something like this for a LONG time. Looking at the preview to ship combat, I think the damage model is way to exaggerated. Oak planked ships don't just fall apart like plywood after all. If the devs want a more realistic damage model, they should check out what Naval Action has done (not to bring in other games, but i think they got a lot of things right in terms of ship battles). Also the soft thud of cannon in the background in that game is amazing when approaching action!

Also, props to you for bringing up the topic of raking. This is a viable tactic in naval combat of the day, and should defiantly be present in the end game. It's also important to note that the bow of a ship is rounded and often reinforced, making the bow a lot harder to damage head on than the stern which is had minimal rounding and often the least thick part of the ship ( also rudder and chains back there that could get damaged?) Ship duels and fleet actions weren't just slugging matches after all, there is quite a bit of strategy involved, and makes it more competitive.

I'd also like to see different sailing properties of each ship type, I know its probably hard to implement, but a sloop isn't going to sail the same as a frigate or SOL.

I know this post is getting a little long, but i keep thinking of things that would be nice to have, Last thing I'll say in this post is heel of the ships should be a thing too. When a ship is heeling over and a shot hits near the waterline, it would eventually heel back over making the hole under the water line. It would be cool to implement a shot plugging / patching mechanic as well.

Offline SwydeBarca

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 05:51:44 pm »
I know this post is getting a little long, but i keep thinking of things that would be nice to have, Last thing I'll say in this post is heel of the ships should be a thing too. When a ship is heeling over and a shot hits near the waterline, it would eventually heel back over making the hole under the water line. It would be cool to implement a shot plugging / patching mechanic as well.

Have your seen my post? ;)

Also, thanks for the suggestion. Can I add it to the OP?

I'd also like to see different sailing properties of each ship type, I know its probably hard to implement, but a sloop isn't going to sail the same as a frigate or SOL.

Aye, a different sail plan for each ship would be quite challenging. I think we should simply have a different sail plan for square-rigged and lateen. EA will only have non-Post ships, so there will be about as many lateens as square-rigged ships, that should be interesting.

Offline Karshaw

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 05:56:44 pm »
Of course you can use it! I read every word of you'r post, and I'm happy you brought up as many points as you did. I didn't think I was regurgitating the shot dynamics exactly, but had a little different take on what you said, but sorry if it looked that way =D. There is SO much potential for Naval combat in this game I'm all giddy inside! As I said earlier, I've waited for a game that does the the proper way for a very long time! Can't wait to see what content makes its way into the game.

Offline Knightmare°

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2017, 12:49:52 am »
Of course you can use it! I read every word of you'r post, and I'm happy you brought up as many points as you did. I didn't think I was regurgitating the shot dynamics exactly, but had a little different take on what you said, but sorry if it looked that way =D. There is SO much potential for Naval combat in this game I'm all giddy inside! As I said earlier, I've waited for a game that does the the proper way for a very long time! Can't wait to see what content makes its way into the game.

True Naval combat will be very different and interesting

Offline Jack

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2017, 02:49:51 pm »
Of course you can use it! I read every word of you'r post, and I'm happy you brought up as many points as you did. I didn't think I was regurgitating the shot dynamics exactly, but had a little different take on what you said, but sorry if it looked that way =D. There is SO much potential for Naval combat in this game I'm all giddy inside! As I said earlier, I've waited for a game that does the the proper way for a very long time! Can't wait to see what content makes its way into the game.

True Naval combat will be very different and interesting
The best bit from my point of view is that it will actually require "Team work" and actively communicating into attacking and working as a crew especially in Naval events, not so much on random fun servers but will be very interesting to see how effective this would be.

Offline SwydeBarca

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2017, 03:02:19 pm »
Agreed, I'm really looking forward to that during events.

Offline Almqvist

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2017, 02:36:00 pm »
Being able to raise or lower sails would make naval battles less tedious, it'd also help with roleplay

Offline SwydeBarca

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2017, 05:51:42 pm »
Being able to raise or lower sails would make naval battles less tedious, it'd also help with roleplay

I'd also add more skill and teamwork to naval battles. Like everything else, if a crew is faster and more efficient at raising and turning the sheets, they will have an edge in the fight.

Offline Karshaw

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2017, 10:06:24 pm »
The Devs can go as far as they want to with this, and There are many things that could be added such as bringing up charges from the magazine to the guns, or dragging wounded crew away from the guns to allow them to recoil properly. The issue is that even on a small ship (the brig) the crew number needed to do all these things will make it way harder for smaller groups to do anything competitive.

Imagine if we needed two crew members to work one cannon. On the the brig, there are what 6 guns a side? So you would need 24 crew members to fully work the guns alone. This will make ships off limits to everyone but the biggest crews in game.

There is going to have to be a balance between realism and playability, in a ideal world I would love to have a fully crew'd ship where everyone has a job, and we all work together to make the ship work, but I think the reality of it is that we're going to have to have some things, like raising and lowering sails something one person can do. Maybe code it so that it's possible for more than one person to be doing that task at the same time to make it faster.

Offline SwydeBarca

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Re: [Naval] Suggestions for Naval Combat
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2017, 01:49:19 am »
I understand that we can't possibly make a game realistic and playable at the same time. I've tried to keep my suggestion tied to game mechanics, and the only player mechanics I proposed (raising & turning the sheets) only require 2 players per mast (aka not a lot).