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Author Topic: Riflemen  (Read 9296 times)

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Offline LePoof

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Re: Rifflemen
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2018, 07:30:08 pm »
Simple fix, have servers without Riflemen for customers that desire the option. Go ahead and place your bets on which servers will be full, and which ones will be nearly empty.
Do you think when riflemen are balanced, people will still hate playing against them?


Probably not, but with the option on some servers turned off we will see the community choose. In the end the customer is the bottom line. Rifleman classes to me is just the game on easy mode, or skirmish mode. I guess if the designers intend for it to be a fun Nap MOD, well than those players that want that will have it. Options are always a better choice, IMHO.
And why do you hate rifles so much?


It is the easy mode setting. Mostly it is making the game familiar e.i. just like other games. I like variety, oh and challenge my friend.
It doesn't make sense to say that they will always be the "easy mode" setting. What about when they have a longer reload time, and/or less health? What about when cavalry is in the game, so they have to be watching out 24/7? Keep in mind that this is an Early Access game, and that it is illogical to think that a class will always be in the state it is right now.
Doesn't matter problem solved in roadmap for game developement. If a server wants to host 100 rifleman on one side, and Hussar Cav only on the other it will awesome to play as either. Variety, plus choices for control is that is needed for people looking for other ways to enjoy the game. But yeah I still think its rather easy to play as one(rifleman).

Offline VetroG

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2018, 10:43:49 pm »
tbf rifles need a nerf like lmfao i get sniped every time cross map

Online Absol

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Re: Rifflemen
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2018, 01:43:35 am »
Doesn't matter problem solved in roadmap for game developement. If a server wants to host 100 rifleman on one side, and Hussar Cav only on the other it will awesome to play as either. Variety, plus choices for control is that is needed for people looking for other ways to enjoy the game. But yeah I still think its rather easy to play as one(rifleman).
Of course. I think having server settings is great too. But when every class will have different roles and playstyles, why be so adamant that one will be more OP? Especially when the game will change a lot over the course of it's life.

Offline LePoof

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2018, 02:49:17 pm »
Balance is off, more so it is the whole frame of mind most people have that they desire an advantage over their opponent's. Which in real warfare is fine(LePoof is not a POG). I have watched this attitude in real life, I play this game for entertainment which to me includes meeting a random player on the field for a duel, but oh wait never mind back to spawn you go for exposing yourself to a rifleman under 70m(pfft, stupid me and that outdated idea of HONOR).

If we don't want balanced classes why not just make MG's brrt brrrt, for the nah sayers that don't like History(why do we play in a historical setting at all???). However if a taste of History or the desire to bring people together to work in teams is the atmosphere wanted at this point Rifleman kill that buzz(not to mention they make it a shooter game). Not my game, not my choice. What we see now in the public server is just hide n shoot. That kinda game is in abundance right now, unique has better chance of success(I hope ANVIL is successful). Like you say, it is still a baby needing some grooming.   

Offline TooL69

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2018, 05:28:31 pm »
Quote
The author, Claude Fuller, used this data to write The Rifted Musket (see targets). At 100 yards, the Springfield hit between 48 and 50 times out of 50 shots per target, getting less than 50 hits only once. Accuracy fell off, though; at 200 yards, the hit rate ranges from 41 down to 32. At 300 yards accuracy is worse, between 23 and 29 hitting the target. At 500 yards the hit rate was between 12 and 21. A moderate wind existed during all firings of the Springfield (Ibid 59-65). The smoothbore musket was tested in two categories, with and without buckshot. At 100 yards, again with 50 shots of ball being fired, between 37 and 43 hit, a hit rate that was not as good as the Springfield, but respectable. At 200 yards, the accuracy fell dramatically, with only 18 to 24 hitting. At 300 yards, accuracy was even worse, with no more than 9 shots hitting the target.
https://scholarworks.iu.edu/journals/index.php/iusburj/article/view/19841/25918

I think the balance should be made in accordance with historical data.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 05:36:33 pm by TooL69 »

Online Absol

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2018, 01:37:53 am »
Quote
The author, Claude Fuller, used this data to write The Rifted Musket (see targets). At 100 yards, the Springfield hit between 48 and 50 times out of 50 shots per target, getting less than 50 hits only once. Accuracy fell off, though; at 200 yards, the hit rate ranges from 41 down to 32. At 300 yards accuracy is worse, between 23 and 29 hitting the target. At 500 yards the hit rate was between 12 and 21. A moderate wind existed during all firings of the Springfield (Ibid 59-65). The smoothbore musket was tested in two categories, with and without buckshot. At 100 yards, again with 50 shots of ball being fired, between 37 and 43 hit, a hit rate that was not as good as the Springfield, but respectable. At 200 yards, the accuracy fell dramatically, with only 18 to 24 hitting. At 300 yards, accuracy was even worse, with no more than 9 shots hitting the target.
https://scholarworks.iu.edu/journals/index.php/iusburj/article/view/19841/25918

I think the balance should be made in accordance with historical data.
I think the balance should be a mixture of historical data and gameplay.

Offline LePoof

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2018, 03:13:30 pm »
How many Rifleman fought during this ERA? 1 per 100, or more like 1 per 10'000? So historical representation means 1 rifleman at best per side??? Regardless there are a lot of good fun to play against players that don't even enter a pub server. I want these players there, they improve my game. Like that Aus guy and his melee skill(omg he is hard to kill). However they prefer to fight in Coastal Siege, or just line battle events. Do you see rifleman in LINE battle events with skirmishers? I haven't yet, no one wants them there neither(funny how that works). Regardless, with server controls people will migrate to the desired want of the day(no need to do anything to rifleman).

Offline Mazz

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2018, 05:02:17 pm »
-Increase reload time by ~30%.
-Decrease cartridge count by 50%.
-Leave accuracy as is.
-Done.

Online Absol

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2018, 01:30:02 am »
How many Rifleman fought during this ERA? 1 per 100, or more like 1 per 10'000? So historical representation means 1 rifleman at best per side??? Regardless there are a lot of good fun to play against players that don't even enter a pub server. I want these players there, they improve my game. Like that Aus guy and his melee skill(omg he is hard to kill). However they prefer to fight in Coastal Siege, or just line battle events. Do you see rifleman in LINE battle events with skirmishers? I haven't yet, no one wants them there neither(funny how that works). Regardless, with server controls people will migrate to the desired want of the day(no need to do anything to rifleman).
The thing is, this game won't be balanced around realistic data. What's the point of having a class if only two people can play them in an entire server. They aren't used in linebattles currently because they're overpowered.
-Increase reload time by ~30%.
-Decrease cartridge count by 50%.
-Leave accuracy as is.
-Done.
I'd think that 20% decreased cartrige size would be fine. We will see how balance goes, though.

Offline CharlieTwoFive

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2018, 05:52:21 am »
Hey guys,

I've finally stopped lurking this forum and decided to put in my two cents to this topic.

-Increase reload time by ~30%.
-Decrease cartridge count by 50%.
-Leave accuracy as is.
-Done.

Quote from: Absol
I'd think that 20% decreased cartrige size would be fine. We will see how balance goes, though.

From my point of view riflemen in this game are - as they are now - just powered-up (accuracy-wise) line infantrists with fancy uniforms.
Their accuracy is what everyone is complaining about, not the amount of ammunition they have to their disposal. Regardless the proposal to reduce the amount of cartridges for riflemen by 50% (not a bad idea, too), apparently there are plans to reduce the amount of cartridges for every class - or so I think I've read somewhere on this forum... *duh*

Anyway, my opinion on this matter is that the riflemen's reload time should be significantly increased - not only because it would be closer to "historical correctness" (see Baker Rifle of the 95th) but also because I believe it would improve the gameplay. Riflemen right now infuriate quite a lot of players - sometimes even myself - due to their very high accuracy and (nearly) same reload time to the other muskets.

Riflemen should take over the role of marksmen with large range and good accuracy but high reload times.
Currently Riflemen have no disadvantages and that's why the 10 Rifleman Slots are instantly taken at the beginning of the round.

Spoiler
[close]

Allowing players to play a class that is way more accurate than the rest of the classes in this game should come with a price. Accuracy for reload speed.

Maybe some players would then even reconsider choosing the Rifleman over something else because reloading would make them way more vulnerable.

As a regular player and a player who has played rifleman for quite a while myself, doing K/Ds of 35/1 which wasn't a rare thing, I've seen plenty of people raging about the "imbalance of the Rifleman" in the InGame chat. I gotta agree to some point and think it's about time something changes.

Best regards,


CharlieTwoFive
MultiOnlineGamer since 2005

Online Absol

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2018, 06:22:15 am »
Hey guys,

I've finally stopped lurking this forum and decided to put in my two cents to this topic.

-Increase reload time by ~30%.
-Decrease cartridge count by 50%.
-Leave accuracy as is.
-Done.

Quote from: Absol
I'd think that 20% decreased cartrige size would be fine. We will see how balance goes, though.

From my point of view riflemen in this game are - as they are now - just powered-up (accuracy-wise) line infantrists with fancy uniforms.
Their accuracy is what everyone is complaining about, not the amount of ammunition they have to their disposal. Regardless the proposal to reduce the amount of cartridges for riflemen by 50% (not a bad idea, too), apparently there are plans to reduce the amount of cartridges for every class - or so I think I've read somewhere on this forum... *duh*

Anyway, my opinion on this matter is that the riflemen's reload time should be significantly increased - not only because it would be closer to "historical correctness" (see Baker Rifle of the 95th) but also because I believe it would improve the gameplay. Riflemen right now infuriate quite a lot of players - sometimes even myself - due to their very high accuracy and (nearly) same reload time to the other muskets.

Riflemen should take over the role of marksmen with large range and good accuracy but high reload times.
Currently Riflemen have no disadvantages and that's why the 10 Rifleman Slots are instantly taken at the beginning of the round.

Spoiler
[close]

Allowing players to play a class that is way more accurate than the rest of the classes in this game should come with a price. Accuracy for reload speed.

Maybe some players would then even reconsider choosing the Rifleman over something else because reloading would make them way more vulnerable.

As a regular player and a player who has played rifleman for quite a while myself, doing K/Ds of 35/1 which wasn't a rare thing, I've seen plenty of people raging about the "imbalance of the Rifleman" in the InGame chat. I gotta agree to some point and think it's about time something changes.

Best regards,


CharlieTwoFive
Yeah, riflemen should be a marksman class, for sitting in the backline and picking off out of position targets, having to worry about artillery and cavalry attacks.

Offline Mousecatcher

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2018, 10:30:01 pm »
Short version

I have brilliant idea (or someone already proposed it?)

Just make riflemen spawn in public games RANDOM for players choosing line infanty/light infranty with cap of 1 rifle per 8 players present in team (max 10). And every time rifleman dies, free slot rolled again. At least - fair rotation for unfair toy.

If some one hates be rifleman for some wierd reason, checkbox "dont ever spawn me as rifleman" can be added in options or something.

Long version - why BLA BLA BLA

Frankly speaking, rifleman was big mistake from begining to add in game at first place. Yes, they cool and fans of Sharp-TVshow realy love them, BUT.

We have snipers in almost all other PvP shooters, they accurate, but balanced by other game mechanics (more or less), like they can be killed from some kind of tank, explosives, some special "from above" ability like airstrike or something. They can be outmaneuvered/knifed whe lying around with fancy scope. At least, other not so accurate weapons have like auto fire and better up close or on the run or something. Long story short, other games have more (or tonns more) VARIABLES to play around snipers and balance them out (with different degrees of success). Holfast is not.

> singleshot weapons, practicaly no other options to harm someone (only melee)
> rather slow/clunky movement
> generaly little room to maneuve and close distance
> very hard "stealth" (if at all)

And here we go -- rifles! Receipt for balance disaster.

I'm speaking indeed about public games. Everyone just skirmish from cover or distance with some random group attacks. And here is main thing!

Problem is - riflemen cannot be practicaly engaged NOT on their terms. He is sitting between or even behind "grunts", in nice cover and just sniping with leasure in 3rd person. Little can be done if you just line infantry.. indeed you can try some crazy charge, dodgy flank run or just shoot with some luck, but anyway this is not fair context. Far from it.

And I doubt that cavalry really change that overall bad balance.

Even nerf is not ideal option at the end (always too little or too much).

So... (^ short version)


« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 10:37:02 pm by Mousecatcher »

Offline Mousecatcher

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2018, 10:31:15 pm »
Sorry, double post. Delete pls. Always messing up with edit/quote.

Online Absol

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2018, 12:42:51 am »

Even nerf is not ideal option at the end (always too little or too much).

And why shouldn't it be put in the game? They've already created the models and such. It's a bit too much to say that "they will always be OP" when the game is still very early in it's EA stage.

Offline Mousecatcher

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Re: Riflemen
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2018, 09:34:46 am »
Yes, they in game (and now connot be simply removed) - and this kind of disign trap.

Why?

Lets imagine riflemen were nefred to reasonable not crippling degree (reload, ammo, generaly).

Does this change things a lot? I doubt. Almost guarantee that you still get not any close to this 10 slots with slow loading on more or less polulated server. People will still play as they played. Other players be still annoyed by "cheap" kills from riflemen and too little tastly slots for "win sticks". Yes, efficiency at frag farmng will be little bit lower, but not so drammatic. And riflemen will continue to be outcasts in serious competive linebattles (even smoothbore skirmishers little bit on border), because in hands of skilled players this is just too much advantage in current game mechanics against line infantry actually in line.

So I think riflemen thing in public games this can be resolved more in lines of changes in spawn mechanics or kit rotation. Not just nefring numbers. This is more wide, disign problem. Like if you have something more powerful in game, make honest chances to everyone to use it (preferable for short time).

Another option is to nerf riflemen just to death, to level when class is so bad, that you can see free slots on 150 ppl server. But this is far from good option too.

May be I not understanding something, but this is my experience with "human nature and balance" in shooters for last decade or so.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 10:01:53 am by Mousecatcher »