Anvil Game Studios

Holdfast: Nations At War => Game Discussion => Topic started by: Damien-Old Alliance on January 27, 2018, 01:43:54 am

Title: Riflemen
Post by: Damien-Old Alliance on January 27, 2018, 01:43:54 am
The Public Server are empty , one Main Reason is the total overpowerd Rifflemen , cut him on 5 each Team or delete this "Supermen".
If you are Atacking 90 % of your Deaths are Riffelmen, its totaly useless.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Absol on January 27, 2018, 02:02:27 am
Riflemen are going to be nerfed.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on January 27, 2018, 09:10:59 am
Riflemen are on the list to be nerfed, as far as I know.

I tend to agree, there should be fewer riflemen for the current server populations.

Maybe the number of riflemen slots could scale with how many people are playing line infantry on a team? I don't know the perfect ratio.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on January 27, 2018, 09:56:16 pm
idk why people cry so much about riflemen, is just about the same thing than any other unit with musket except for the smaller circle which btw doesn't really make a great  change if you actually know how to aim your musket.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Aitomies on January 27, 2018, 10:45:23 pm
Rifles for the win bois
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Faultier on January 28, 2018, 12:14:30 am
Honestly........... as someone who loved playing rifleman in M&B:W NW I cant hit a barn with the rifles in Holdfast. Im better with the muskt and cant understand how ppl can hit anything with them   ;D
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Absol on January 28, 2018, 01:06:11 am
Honestly........... as someone who loved playing rifleman in M&B:W NW I cant hit a barn with the rifles in Holdfast. Im better with the muskt and cant understand how ppl can hit anything with them   ;D
I don't see how you can hit with the musket and not the rifle.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Lord_Oliverzouch on January 28, 2018, 04:44:38 am

well it is historically accurate the longest baker rifle shot which is the rifle used by the 95th rifles during the napoleonic wars was 200m i'm pretty sure but i know what you mean they can be very annoying  :)
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Damien-Old Alliance on January 28, 2018, 01:55:48 pm
The problem is the Weapon is totally overpowerd.
I talk only over the Public Servers ( not line Battles if you like ti use it ) if you playing there you have no chance to atack , 10 Riffles hit all , i see and try this every day and loosing the fun and all my Friends too if i talk to there all saying the same.
I can Pick the Riffle in every Game cause i join fast and can Pick the Riffle , it is totaly easy to have 10:1  or 20:1 in a 20 Min Game , you need no Skill for this , but i like it more to Play as Line to have a good Gamefeeling.
If you play as Line you are only a Living Target , if you Atack you die nonstop , and pls , isee this everyday.
You dont must delete the Riffle , cut it to 5 on the Official Server , that would be helpfull for the Game on Public Servers.

Btw try to stay in a Line on a Public Server and you  see what will happens than.. :))
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Absol on January 28, 2018, 07:32:36 pm
The problem is the Weapon is totally overpowerd.
I talk only over the Public Servers ( not line Battles if you like ti use it ) if you playing there you have no chance to atack , 10 Riffles hit all , i see and try this every day and loosing the fun and all my Friends too if i talk to there all saying the same.
I can Pick the Riffle in every Game cause i join fast and can Pick the Riffle , it is totaly easy to have 10:1  or 20:1 in a 20 Min Game , you need no Skill for this , but i like it more to Play as Line to have a good Gamefeeling.
If you play as Line you are only a Living Target , if you Atack you die nonstop , and pls , isee this everyday.
You dont must delete the Riffle , cut it to 5 on the Official Server , that would be helpfull for the Game on Public Servers.

Btw try to stay in a Line on a Public Server and you  see what will happens than.. :))
It's overpowered and a fix is coming.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on January 28, 2018, 10:57:38 pm
The problem is the Weapon is totally overpowerd.
I talk only over the Public Servers ( not line Battles if you like ti use it ) if you playing there you have no chance to atack , 10 Riffles hit all , i see and try this every day and loosing the fun and all my Friends too if i talk to there all saying the same.
I can Pick the Riffle in every Game cause i join fast and can Pick the Riffle , it is totaly easy to have 10:1  or 20:1 in a 20 Min Game , you need no Skill for this , but i like it more to Play as Line to have a good Gamefeeling.
If you play as Line you are only a Living Target , if you Atack you die nonstop , and pls , isee this everyday.
You dont must delete the Riffle , cut it to 5 on the Official Server , that would be helpfull for the Game on Public Servers.

Btw try to stay in a Line on a Public Server and you  see what will happens than.. :))

you can pull the same score with a musket, let's not forget that most of public maps are for close range fights and skirmishes. the only advantage for me to pick a rifleman is because you can be more sneaky in specific maps. other than that is not so hard to perform the same shots with any other class (except pistol ones). Roleplay in lines is cute and all that but in public servers you don't have that as there's not really a mechanic to force the players to do so in such way.

then again i think people just gets salty because of few skilled riflemen.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: The Viking on January 28, 2018, 11:23:52 pm
IMO everything would be fine if you'd just increase significally time rate for reloading rifle. I heard that it took a much longer time to do it because of special bullet type. Also, i heard that shooter had to hit ramrod with hammer in some cases, but not sure, maybe it's just a myth?
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Absol on January 28, 2018, 11:43:50 pm
IMO everything would be fine if you'd just increase significally time rate for reloading rifle. I heard that it took a much longer time to do it because of special bullet type. Also, i heard that shooter had to hit ramrod with hammer in some cases, but not sure, maybe it's just a myth?
They're likely going to make the reload speed longer, that's all.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: TooL69 on January 29, 2018, 05:18:33 pm
IMO everything would be fine if you'd just increase significally time rate for reloading rifle. I heard that it took a much longer time to do it because of special bullet type. Also, i heard that shooter had to hit ramrod with hammer in some cases, but not sure, maybe it's just a myth?
It would be realistic. The musket is twice as fast as the rifle. The rifle is twice as accurate as the musket.
(http://img.allzip.org/g/36/orig/7088575.jpg)
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Saris on January 29, 2018, 08:50:45 pm
Also there is no cavalry atm to keep the rifles in check
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: LePoof on January 31, 2018, 04:49:15 pm
Simple fix, have servers without Riflemen for customers that desire the option. Go ahead and place your bets on which servers will be full, and which ones will be nearly empty.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Absol on February 01, 2018, 01:48:17 am
Simple fix, have servers without Riflemen for customers that desire the option. Go ahead and place your bets on which servers will be full, and which ones will be nearly empty.
Do you think when riflemen are balanced, people will still hate playing against them?
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: LueyHewis on February 01, 2018, 10:06:46 pm
To be honest, I think the servers are dead (mostly) because people don't want to play outside of Linebattles, because they have no reason to do so at the moment. Best thing you can do as someone who just joined into the game is look for a regiment or else you will lose interest in the game. (Except you like playing casual)
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on February 01, 2018, 10:42:29 pm
To be honest, I think the servers are dead (mostly) because people don't want to play outside of Linebattles, because they have no reason to do so at the moment. Best thing you can do as someone who just joined into the game is look for a regiment or else you will lose interest in the game. (Except you like playing casual)

I disagree, I love public games.

I think with a game like this one (highly unpolished) it's up to the community to keep the game feeling fun, even with the rough edges. I personally have a ton of fun when people like Haybales or veXed are playing because they really get into character and do things that would never happen in a linebattle.

That's really the reason I play this game, I like to witness and help create those fun moments.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 04, 2018, 08:27:02 am
To be honest, I think the servers are dead (mostly) because people don't want to play outside of Linebattles, because they have no reason to do so at the moment. Best thing you can do as someone who just joined into the game is look for a regiment or else you will lose interest in the game. (Except you like playing casual)

i don't think so, i've got  lots of fun with this game mainly because it offers some weird role playing aspect you don't get to see elsewhere,  i mean when this dude Jean or some officers start to organize stuff with that broken French accent, the horrid music some people streams, the Banzai charges or all the randomness that happens it really adds a lot of value to the game. Considering i been playing this over BF1, LoL and some other games i think that's a lot to say about this game's potential.

also i'm not in any regiment but from what i've seen in youtube is just doing some cute lines, fire some shots and end up doing what everyone does in public games, so i don't see why such thing should be such a big deal.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Carruthers on February 04, 2018, 09:18:14 am
Everytime I join a server with 0/150 I expect a least 10 riflemen to kill me when I join
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 04, 2018, 05:42:25 pm
Simple fix, have servers without Riflemen for customers that desire the option. Go ahead and place your bets on which servers will be full, and which ones will be nearly empty.
Do you think when riflemen are balanced, people will still hate playing against them?


Probably not, but with the option on some servers turned off we will see the community choose. In the end the customer is the bottom line. Rifleman classes to me is just the game on easy mode, or skirmish mode. I guess if the designers intend for it to be a fun Nap MOD, well than those players that want that will have it. Options are always a better choice, IMHO.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Absol on February 04, 2018, 06:23:03 pm
Simple fix, have servers without Riflemen for customers that desire the option. Go ahead and place your bets on which servers will be full, and which ones will be nearly empty.
Do you think when riflemen are balanced, people will still hate playing against them?


Probably not, but with the option on some servers turned off we will see the community choose. In the end the customer is the bottom line. Rifleman classes to me is just the game on easy mode, or skirmish mode. I guess if the designers intend for it to be a fun Nap MOD, well than those players that want that will have it. Options are always a better choice, IMHO.
And why do you hate rifles so much?
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Mousecatcher on February 04, 2018, 10:30:36 pm
Right now there is no any practical reason to not take rifleman in common public skirmish game expect some rpg-motives or wierd fun ideas or sick flag-fencing.

Its not like this or that and balance, one option is just better for common player who needs frags, more frags and this is all he want or like. But this is for first 10 each team, who has fast loading.

So rifles not hated par se, they just feel "unfair" in overall logic -- almost nothing right now compensates this to other main classes. Also no real disadvantages for rifleman to other troops.

x2 reload time to current
less health (like 2/3 of line infantry)
weaker melee (less effective sword-bayonet)

General idea, rifleman must be complete shit in everything exept movement and somewhat slow sniping.

Thats how rifleman should be balanced in my opinion.

Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 04, 2018, 11:55:32 pm
Simple fix, have servers without Riflemen for customers that desire the option. Go ahead and place your bets on which servers will be full, and which ones will be nearly empty.
Do you think when riflemen are balanced, people will still hate playing against them?


Probably not, but with the option on some servers turned off we will see the community choose. In the end the customer is the bottom line. Rifleman classes to me is just the game on easy mode, or skirmish mode. I guess if the designers intend for it to be a fun Nap MOD, well than those players that want that will have it. Options are always a better choice, IMHO.
And why do you hate rifles so much?


It is the easy mode setting. Mostly it is making the game familiar e.i. just like other games. I like variety, oh and challenge my friend.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Carruthers on February 04, 2018, 11:58:10 pm
Riflemen can't be considered fixed until the pubbies don't spam to get the slots.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 05, 2018, 12:02:07 am
Right now there is no any practical reason to not take rifleman in common public skirmish game expect some rpg-motives or wierd fun ideas or sick flag-fencing.

Its not like this or that and balance, one option is just better for common player who needs frags, more frags and this is all he want or like. But this is for first 10 each team, who has fast loading.

So rifles not hated par se, they just feel "unfair" in overall logic -- almost nothing right now compensates this to other main classes. Also no real disadvantages for rifleman to other troops.

x2 reload time to current
less health (like 2/3 of line infantry)
weaker melee (less effective sword-bayonet)

General idea, rifleman must be complete shit in everything exept movement and somewhat slow sniping.

Thats how rifleman should be balanced in my opinion.

Better than the current balance I would say. However the ability to turn off any class, or having class restrictions to the number of LINE INF. Also think about when Gren's finally get NADES, or LANCERS swoop through the fields in mass my thoughts lean to the ADMIN's having some controls to allow customers a bit of spice, with variety.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Absol on February 05, 2018, 01:22:57 am
Simple fix, have servers without Riflemen for customers that desire the option. Go ahead and place your bets on which servers will be full, and which ones will be nearly empty.
Do you think when riflemen are balanced, people will still hate playing against them?


Probably not, but with the option on some servers turned off we will see the community choose. In the end the customer is the bottom line. Rifleman classes to me is just the game on easy mode, or skirmish mode. I guess if the designers intend for it to be a fun Nap MOD, well than those players that want that will have it. Options are always a better choice, IMHO.
And why do you hate rifles so much?


It is the easy mode setting. Mostly it is making the game familiar e.i. just like other games. I like variety, oh and challenge my friend.
It doesn't make sense to say that they will always be the "easy mode" setting. What about when they have a longer reload time, and/or less health? What about when cavalry is in the game, so they have to be watching out 24/7? Keep in mind that this is an Early Access game, and that it is illogical to think that a class will always be in the state it is right now.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Mousecatcher on February 05, 2018, 07:00:14 am
Another problems of "riflemen" sorts incoming - everyone will crave to be cavalry, riflemen, any class with real perks, expept boring line infantry (this for loosers who can't load fast)...

So with any addition to game mechanics we again find youselfs in this cursed circle.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 05, 2018, 08:41:19 am
(this for losers who can't load fast)...

exactly my thoughts, anyways... like in any other game people will complain about certain class and stuff, but my hopes are that the dev team  knows their thing and capitalize in what actually makes this game fun, imho they should give more rewards to officers that  lead their team to victory or make the game enjoyable, same for medics, support and all the other classes which are literally the same thing with different uniforms.

we need guys with ammo, mobile artillery and carpenters that can fix it.
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 05, 2018, 07:30:08 pm
Simple fix, have servers without Riflemen for customers that desire the option. Go ahead and place your bets on which servers will be full, and which ones will be nearly empty.
Do you think when riflemen are balanced, people will still hate playing against them?


Probably not, but with the option on some servers turned off we will see the community choose. In the end the customer is the bottom line. Rifleman classes to me is just the game on easy mode, or skirmish mode. I guess if the designers intend for it to be a fun Nap MOD, well than those players that want that will have it. Options are always a better choice, IMHO.
And why do you hate rifles so much?


It is the easy mode setting. Mostly it is making the game familiar e.i. just like other games. I like variety, oh and challenge my friend.
It doesn't make sense to say that they will always be the "easy mode" setting. What about when they have a longer reload time, and/or less health? What about when cavalry is in the game, so they have to be watching out 24/7? Keep in mind that this is an Early Access game, and that it is illogical to think that a class will always be in the state it is right now.
Doesn't matter problem solved in roadmap for game developement. If a server wants to host 100 rifleman on one side, and Hussar Cav only on the other it will awesome to play as either. Variety, plus choices for control is that is needed for people looking for other ways to enjoy the game. But yeah I still think its rather easy to play as one(rifleman).
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: VetroG on February 05, 2018, 10:43:49 pm
tbf rifles need a nerf like lmfao i get sniped every time cross map
Title: Re: Rifflemen
Post by: Absol on February 06, 2018, 01:43:35 am
Doesn't matter problem solved in roadmap for game developement. If a server wants to host 100 rifleman on one side, and Hussar Cav only on the other it will awesome to play as either. Variety, plus choices for control is that is needed for people looking for other ways to enjoy the game. But yeah I still think its rather easy to play as one(rifleman).
Of course. I think having server settings is great too. But when every class will have different roles and playstyles, why be so adamant that one will be more OP? Especially when the game will change a lot over the course of it's life.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 06, 2018, 02:49:17 pm
Balance is off, more so it is the whole frame of mind most people have that they desire an advantage over their opponent's. Which in real warfare is fine(LePoof is not a POG). I have watched this attitude in real life, I play this game for entertainment which to me includes meeting a random player on the field for a duel, but oh wait never mind back to spawn you go for exposing yourself to a rifleman under 70m(pfft, stupid me and that outdated idea of HONOR).

If we don't want balanced classes why not just make MG's brrt brrrt, for the nah sayers that don't like History(why do we play in a historical setting at all???). However if a taste of History or the desire to bring people together to work in teams is the atmosphere wanted at this point Rifleman kill that buzz(not to mention they make it a shooter game). Not my game, not my choice. What we see now in the public server is just hide n shoot. That kinda game is in abundance right now, unique has better chance of success(I hope ANVIL is successful). Like you say, it is still a baby needing some grooming.   
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: TooL69 on February 06, 2018, 05:28:31 pm
Quote
The author, Claude Fuller, used this data to write The Rifted Musket (see targets). At 100 yards, the Springfield hit between 48 and 50 times out of 50 shots per target, getting less than 50 hits only once. Accuracy fell off, though; at 200 yards, the hit rate ranges from 41 down to 32. At 300 yards accuracy is worse, between 23 and 29 hitting the target. At 500 yards the hit rate was between 12 and 21. A moderate wind existed during all firings of the Springfield (Ibid 59-65). The smoothbore musket was tested in two categories, with and without buckshot. At 100 yards, again with 50 shots of ball being fired, between 37 and 43 hit, a hit rate that was not as good as the Springfield, but respectable. At 200 yards, the accuracy fell dramatically, with only 18 to 24 hitting. At 300 yards, accuracy was even worse, with no more than 9 shots hitting the target.
https://scholarworks.iu.edu/journals/index.php/iusburj/article/view/19841/25918

I think the balance should be made in accordance with historical data.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Absol on February 07, 2018, 01:37:53 am
Quote
The author, Claude Fuller, used this data to write The Rifted Musket (see targets). At 100 yards, the Springfield hit between 48 and 50 times out of 50 shots per target, getting less than 50 hits only once. Accuracy fell off, though; at 200 yards, the hit rate ranges from 41 down to 32. At 300 yards accuracy is worse, between 23 and 29 hitting the target. At 500 yards the hit rate was between 12 and 21. A moderate wind existed during all firings of the Springfield (Ibid 59-65). The smoothbore musket was tested in two categories, with and without buckshot. At 100 yards, again with 50 shots of ball being fired, between 37 and 43 hit, a hit rate that was not as good as the Springfield, but respectable. At 200 yards, the accuracy fell dramatically, with only 18 to 24 hitting. At 300 yards, accuracy was even worse, with no more than 9 shots hitting the target.
https://scholarworks.iu.edu/journals/index.php/iusburj/article/view/19841/25918

I think the balance should be made in accordance with historical data.
I think the balance should be a mixture of historical data and gameplay.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 07, 2018, 03:13:30 pm
How many Rifleman fought during this ERA? 1 per 100, or more like 1 per 10'000? So historical representation means 1 rifleman at best per side??? Regardless there are a lot of good fun to play against players that don't even enter a pub server. I want these players there, they improve my game. Like that Aus guy and his melee skill(omg he is hard to kill). However they prefer to fight in Coastal Siege, or just line battle events. Do you see rifleman in LINE battle events with skirmishers? I haven't yet, no one wants them there neither(funny how that works). Regardless, with server controls people will migrate to the desired want of the day(no need to do anything to rifleman).
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Mazz on February 07, 2018, 05:02:17 pm
-Increase reload time by ~30%.
-Decrease cartridge count by 50%.
-Leave accuracy as is.
-Done.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Absol on February 08, 2018, 01:30:02 am
How many Rifleman fought during this ERA? 1 per 100, or more like 1 per 10'000? So historical representation means 1 rifleman at best per side??? Regardless there are a lot of good fun to play against players that don't even enter a pub server. I want these players there, they improve my game. Like that Aus guy and his melee skill(omg he is hard to kill). However they prefer to fight in Coastal Siege, or just line battle events. Do you see rifleman in LINE battle events with skirmishers? I haven't yet, no one wants them there neither(funny how that works). Regardless, with server controls people will migrate to the desired want of the day(no need to do anything to rifleman).
The thing is, this game won't be balanced around realistic data. What's the point of having a class if only two people can play them in an entire server. They aren't used in linebattles currently because they're overpowered.
-Increase reload time by ~30%.
-Decrease cartridge count by 50%.
-Leave accuracy as is.
-Done.
I'd think that 20% decreased cartrige size would be fine. We will see how balance goes, though.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: CharlieTwoFive on February 09, 2018, 05:52:21 am
Hey guys,

I've finally stopped lurking this forum and decided to put in my two cents to this topic.

-Increase reload time by ~30%.
-Decrease cartridge count by 50%.
-Leave accuracy as is.
-Done.

Quote from: Absol
I'd think that 20% decreased cartrige size would be fine. We will see how balance goes, though.

From my point of view riflemen in this game are - as they are now - just powered-up (accuracy-wise) line infantrists with fancy uniforms.
Their accuracy is what everyone is complaining about, not the amount of ammunition they have to their disposal. Regardless the proposal to reduce the amount of cartridges for riflemen by 50% (not a bad idea, too), apparently there are plans to reduce the amount of cartridges for every class - or so I think I've read somewhere on this forum... *duh*

Anyway, my opinion on this matter is that the riflemen's reload time should be significantly increased - not only because it would be closer to "historical correctness" (see Baker Rifle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_rifle#Rate_of_fire) of the 95th) but also because I believe it would improve the gameplay. Riflemen right now infuriate quite a lot of players - sometimes even myself - due to their very high accuracy and (nearly) same reload time to the other muskets.

Riflemen should take over the role of marksmen with large range and good accuracy but high reload times.
Currently Riflemen have no disadvantages and that's why the 10 Rifleman Slots are instantly taken at the beginning of the round.

Spoiler
[close]

Allowing players to play a class that is way more accurate than the rest of the classes in this game should come with a price. Accuracy for reload speed.

Maybe some players would then even reconsider choosing the Rifleman over something else because reloading would make them way more vulnerable.

As a regular player and a player who has played rifleman for quite a while myself, doing K/Ds of 35/1 which wasn't a rare thing, I've seen plenty of people raging about the "imbalance of the Rifleman" in the InGame chat. I gotta agree to some point and think it's about time something changes.

Best regards,


CharlieTwoFive
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Absol on February 09, 2018, 06:22:15 am
Hey guys,

I've finally stopped lurking this forum and decided to put in my two cents to this topic.

-Increase reload time by ~30%.
-Decrease cartridge count by 50%.
-Leave accuracy as is.
-Done.

Quote from: Absol
I'd think that 20% decreased cartrige size would be fine. We will see how balance goes, though.

From my point of view riflemen in this game are - as they are now - just powered-up (accuracy-wise) line infantrists with fancy uniforms.
Their accuracy is what everyone is complaining about, not the amount of ammunition they have to their disposal. Regardless the proposal to reduce the amount of cartridges for riflemen by 50% (not a bad idea, too), apparently there are plans to reduce the amount of cartridges for every class - or so I think I've read somewhere on this forum... *duh*

Anyway, my opinion on this matter is that the riflemen's reload time should be significantly increased - not only because it would be closer to "historical correctness" (see Baker Rifle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_rifle#Rate_of_fire) of the 95th) but also because I believe it would improve the gameplay. Riflemen right now infuriate quite a lot of players - sometimes even myself - due to their very high accuracy and (nearly) same reload time to the other muskets.

Riflemen should take over the role of marksmen with large range and good accuracy but high reload times.
Currently Riflemen have no disadvantages and that's why the 10 Rifleman Slots are instantly taken at the beginning of the round.

Spoiler
[close]

Allowing players to play a class that is way more accurate than the rest of the classes in this game should come with a price. Accuracy for reload speed.

Maybe some players would then even reconsider choosing the Rifleman over something else because reloading would make them way more vulnerable.

As a regular player and a player who has played rifleman for quite a while myself, doing K/Ds of 35/1 which wasn't a rare thing, I've seen plenty of people raging about the "imbalance of the Rifleman" in the InGame chat. I gotta agree to some point and think it's about time something changes.

Best regards,


CharlieTwoFive
Yeah, riflemen should be a marksman class, for sitting in the backline and picking off out of position targets, having to worry about artillery and cavalry attacks.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Mousecatcher on February 10, 2018, 10:30:01 pm
Short version

I have brilliant idea (or someone already proposed it?)

Just make riflemen spawn in public games RANDOM for players choosing line infanty/light infranty with cap of 1 rifle per 8 players present in team (max 10). And every time rifleman dies, free slot rolled again. At least - fair rotation for unfair toy.

If some one hates be rifleman for some wierd reason, checkbox "dont ever spawn me as rifleman" can be added in options or something.

Long version - why BLA BLA BLA

Frankly speaking, rifleman was big mistake from begining to add in game at first place. Yes, they cool and fans of Sharp-TVshow realy love them, BUT.

We have snipers in almost all other PvP shooters, they accurate, but balanced by other game mechanics (more or less), like they can be killed from some kind of tank, explosives, some special "from above" ability like airstrike or something. They can be outmaneuvered/knifed whe lying around with fancy scope. At least, other not so accurate weapons have like auto fire and better up close or on the run or something. Long story short, other games have more (or tonns more) VARIABLES to play around snipers and balance them out (with different degrees of success). Holfast is not.

> singleshot weapons, practicaly no other options to harm someone (only melee)
> rather slow/clunky movement
> generaly little room to maneuve and close distance
> very hard "stealth" (if at all)

And here we go -- rifles! Receipt for balance disaster.

I'm speaking indeed about public games. Everyone just skirmish from cover or distance with some random group attacks. And here is main thing!

Problem is - riflemen cannot be practicaly engaged NOT on their terms. He is sitting between or even behind "grunts", in nice cover and just sniping with leasure in 3rd person. Little can be done if you just line infantry.. indeed you can try some crazy charge, dodgy flank run or just shoot with some luck, but anyway this is not fair context. Far from it.

And I doubt that cavalry really change that overall bad balance.

Even nerf is not ideal option at the end (always too little or too much).

So... (^ short version)


Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Mousecatcher on February 10, 2018, 10:31:15 pm
Sorry, double post. Delete pls. Always messing up with edit/quote.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Absol on February 11, 2018, 12:42:51 am

Even nerf is not ideal option at the end (always too little or too much).

And why shouldn't it be put in the game? They've already created the models and such. It's a bit too much to say that "they will always be OP" when the game is still very early in it's EA stage.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Mousecatcher on February 11, 2018, 09:34:46 am
Yes, they in game (and now connot be simply removed) - and this kind of disign trap.

Why?

Lets imagine riflemen were nefred to reasonable not crippling degree (reload, ammo, generaly).

Does this change things a lot? I doubt. Almost guarantee that you still get not any close to this 10 slots with slow loading on more or less polulated server. People will still play as they played. Other players be still annoyed by "cheap" kills from riflemen and too little tastly slots for "win sticks". Yes, efficiency at frag farmng will be little bit lower, but not so drammatic. And riflemen will continue to be outcasts in serious competive linebattles (even smoothbore skirmishers little bit on border), because in hands of skilled players this is just too much advantage in current game mechanics against line infantry actually in line.

So I think riflemen thing in public games this can be resolved more in lines of changes in spawn mechanics or kit rotation. Not just nefring numbers. This is more wide, disign problem. Like if you have something more powerful in game, make honest chances to everyone to use it (preferable for short time).

Another option is to nerf riflemen just to death, to level when class is so bad, that you can see free slots on 150 ppl server. But this is far from good option too.

May be I not understanding something, but this is my experience with "human nature and balance" in shooters for last decade or so.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 11, 2018, 02:40:41 pm
Yes, they in game (and now connot be simply removed) - and this kind of disign trap.

Why?

Lets imagine riflemen were nefred to reasonable not crippling degree (reload, ammo, generaly).

Does this change things a lot? I doubt. Almost guarantee that you still get not any close to this 10 slots with slow loading on more or less polulated server. People will still play as they played. Other players be still annoyed by "cheap" kills from riflemen and too little tastly slots for "win sticks". Yes, efficiency at frag farmng will be little bit lower, but not so drammatic. And riflemen will continue to be outcasts in serious competive linebattles (even smoothbore skirmishers little bit on border), because in hands of skilled players this is just too much advantage in current game mechanics against line infantry actually in line.

So I think riflemen thing in public games this can be resolved more in lines of changes in spawn mechanics or kit rotation. Not just nefring numbers. This is more wide, disign problem. Like if you have something more powerful in game, make honest chances to everyone to use it (preferable for short time).

Another option is to nerf riflemen just to death, to level when class is so bad, that you can see free slots on 150 ppl server. But this is far from good option too.

May be I not understanding something, but this is my experience with "human nature and balance" in shooters for last decade or so.

Dude Sharpes Rifles, and Sean Bean are more important than game balance. Also some players only play games or desire(willing to pay extra) for an edge up on other players(WoT's anyone). They will never remove them, but that is fine if we have server controls that allows us to have private servers without them. Frankly it just makes the game a shoot and hide game currently. Horses will not change much they just make easier targets.

I totally agree with you on the point of this beganning to feel like just another shooter game. Several steps can be made to change this though, and complaining without suggestion is just whinning. I would give Officers a regenerative health AOE, surgeons a limited spawn abiltiy, flagbeaers a Health buff AOE, drummers a load speed buff, and fife/pipes the hit buff. Give people a reason to seek the line, and they will.

Regardless this all changes when we get server controls to just rid them from our game.

(https://i.imgur.com/t36lnPx.png)
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Mousecatcher on February 11, 2018, 04:24:31 pm
Even with all this passive aoe - bonuses to officers and supports, people will not happly fall in orderly line, just hide in cover (like in buildings/fences/rocks) and old good shoot and hide continue with even more comfort.

Something more "directional" and "interactive", so to say, needed. To use for action (attack), not defence.

Like officers have limited (cooldown) charge! command, that for like 30 sec gives wide aoe with at least running speed bonus, may be more.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Absol on February 11, 2018, 09:14:41 pm
Even with all this passive aoe - bonuses to officers and supports, people will not happly fall in orderly line, just hide in cover (like in buildings/fences/rocks) and old good shoot and hide continue with even more comfort.

Something more "directional" and "interactive", so to say, needed. To use for action (attack), not defence.

Like officers have limited (cooldown) charge! command, that for like 30 sec gives wide aoe with at least running speed bonus, may be more.
It (should) also give a melee damage buff.
http://anvilgamestudios.com/News/Post?p=1010
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Absol on February 11, 2018, 09:20:57 pm
Yes, they in game (and now connot be simply removed) - and this kind of disign trap.

Why?

Lets imagine riflemen were nefred to reasonable not crippling degree (reload, ammo, generaly).

Does this change things a lot? I doubt. Almost guarantee that you still get not any close to this 10 slots with slow loading on more or less polulated server. People will still play as they played. Other players be still annoyed by "cheap" kills from riflemen and too little tastly slots for "win sticks". Yes, efficiency at frag farmng will be little bit lower, but not so drammatic. And riflemen will continue to be outcasts in serious competive linebattles (even smoothbore skirmishers little bit on border), because in hands of skilled players this is just too much advantage in current game mechanics against line infantry actually in line.

So I think riflemen thing in public games this can be resolved more in lines of changes in spawn mechanics or kit rotation. Not just nefring numbers. This is more wide, disign problem. Like if you have something more powerful in game, make honest chances to everyone to use it (preferable for short time).

Another option is to nerf riflemen just to death, to level when class is so bad, that you can see free slots on 150 ppl server. But this is far from good option too.

May be I not understanding something, but this is my experience with "human nature and balance" in shooters for last decade or so.
I don't see how getting kills with a class that has both advantages and disadvantages makes them "cheap kills". When they're getting harrased by cav all the time, they won't be as big of a problem.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 12, 2018, 05:14:41 am
i wonder what will be the next excuse when cavalry proves to be useless in skirmish maps and  gets shot from an advantage spot.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 12, 2018, 05:41:15 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrhRT9yx4YE
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Moreton on February 12, 2018, 04:32:17 pm
Rifles aren't as broken as people think. Yea' they give you an accuracy and range advantage, but they have a longer reload time, lack bayonets, and are limited to just 10 slots. People seem to be on the verge of saying that playing as a rifleman is the only way to dominate the scoreboard which just isn't true. On public servers I rarely get into game in time to get a rifle slot but I've never found myself saying 'gee if only I was a rifleman I could be playing well'.

Yea' they have an easier time than other classes, but that's why they're so limited. I wouldn't be against seeing a nerf to their reload time and maybe cartridges as people have suggested but there's no need to over-nerf them.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 12, 2018, 05:28:56 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrhRT9yx4YE

He missed why the Infantry Massed in such a way(to protect the Big Guns).
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: CaptainDocPomus on February 15, 2018, 05:47:10 pm
I tend to think the problem with the class is it's the class EVERYONE wants to play, in any given battle it is the first class to be taken. As a player with a slower connection I never get to play this class, perhaps a mechanic that does not allow you to choose Riflemen twice in a row? It's easily the most OP class in the game and now instead of 1 out of 10 chance of getting it, there is only a 1/6 chance to get it, which less Riflemen is nicer for those of us who don't get to play them but seem to die over and over by their hands. Still, It's going to be the one thing everyone wants to play. I personally like a lot of the other classes but it would be nice to at least try out Rifleman which is not easy unless you are quick on the draw.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 15, 2018, 05:57:10 pm
I tend to think the problem with the class is it's the class EVERYONE wants to play, in any given battle it is the first class to be taken. As a player with a slower connection I never get to play this class, perhaps a mechanic that does not allow you to choose Riflemen twice in a row? It's easily the most OP class in the game and now instead of 1 out of 10 chance of getting it, there is only a 1/6 chance to get it, which less Riflemen is nicer for those of us who don't get to play them but seem to die over and over by their hands. Still, It's going to be the one thing everyone wants to play. I personally like a lot of the other classes but it would be nice to at least try out Rifleman which is not easy unless you are quick on the draw.

Rifleman game in a nut shell. Get circle on target around 50m, and click mouse button to fire. Bang you hit, real easy...

(https://i.imgur.com/t36lnPx.png)
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 15, 2018, 06:57:49 pm

Rifleman game in a nut shell. Get circle on target around 50m, and click mouse button to fire. Bang you hit, real easy...


is pretty much the same with every other class though. Regardless of that i have more fun doing long shot practice with the rifleman even now that got severely nerfed.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: CharlieTwoFive on February 15, 2018, 08:39:33 pm

is pretty much the same with every other class though. Regardless of that i have more fun doing long shot practice with the rifleman even now that got severely nerfed.

Did I miss something? What nerf did the rifleman get? The reduction of rifleman slots cannot be called a nerf. Or did they finally increase the reload speed?
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 15, 2018, 08:50:41 pm

Did I miss something? What nerf did the rifleman get? The reduction of rifleman slots cannot be called a nerf. Or did they finally increase the reload speed?

at least from what i've seen the bullet drop and accuracy changed big time which changes the whole dynamic of the rifleman.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: TooL69 on February 15, 2018, 09:14:47 pm
Surprisingly, the stones and darts seem more effective than the weapons of the 19th century presented in the game ...
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Moreton on February 16, 2018, 02:59:26 pm
How come Rifles are now only limited to 6 on a server instead of 10?

Now that basically means that unless you're really lucky the only way to play Rifles is join a Rifles Reg. This is going to mess up Rifle Reg's a bit too as well though if they can only take 6 rifles to a game. Have I missed something? Nothing about this in the latest update news.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: DanielG453 on February 16, 2018, 05:12:33 pm
Thanks, to all the crying about Rifles the 95th will in our Event tonight will only be able to field six Riflemen.

The accuracy debuff would have been enough but, it seems that this now a punishment, thank you for destroying our regimental base.

Your Sincerely,
The Members of the 95th Rifles.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: CharlieTwoFive on February 16, 2018, 05:30:37 pm
I did not notice a decreased accuracy of the Rifleman with the new update but I can't confirm there was an accuracy debuff since the slot reduction was not announced or listed anywhere either.

All I can say is that the public games are a lot more balanced now and less people complain about the rifleman because they don't get sniped from across the map by 1/6 of the enemy team that often anymore. However, rifleman still dominate the scoreboard in most matches.

Decreasing the rifleman slots was the right thing to do for public matches. Having negative influence on regiment bases is an unfortunate byeffect.

And in regards to the "can't get a rifleman slot anymore"-issue - like someone said InGame:
Quote
You can't blame the game for you having a bad computer.
Some people load in faster than others. Life is unfair...  :D

Edit: Judging the range of the shots I took within the last 3 hours I highly doubt that the accuracy of the rifleman was touched in any way.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 17, 2018, 12:46:29 am
you get to notice the differences when you actually spent some time training with your weapon and understand how it works, anyways at least for now in regular army battlefield you can simply adjust, in assault you have to play ninja to make every shot count, so i'm pretty sure soon enough people will be crying again about riflemen.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Absol on February 17, 2018, 02:33:47 am
Thanks, to all the crying about Rifles the 95th will in our Event tonight will only be able to field six Riflemen.

The accuracy debuff would have been enough but, it seems that this now a punishment, thank you for destroying our regimental base.

Your Sincerely,
The Members of the 95th Rifles.
That's just in hardcore mode but ok
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Caselius on February 17, 2018, 08:59:51 am
Thanks, to all the crying about Rifles the 95th will in our Event tonight will only be able to field six Riflemen.

The accuracy debuff would have been enough but, it seems that this now a punishment, thank you for destroying our regimental base.

Your Sincerely,
The Members of the 95th Rifles.
That's just in hardcore mode but ok
Hardcore mode has no effect on the class limits of the riflemen and it's limited to 6 even without. Worst thing is that it was  an unannounced change which had negative impact on regiments playing rifles in events.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepper on February 17, 2018, 06:24:18 pm
Thanks, to all the crying about Rifles the 95th will in our Event tonight will only be able to field six Riflemen.

The accuracy debuff would have been enough but, it seems that this now a punishment, thank you for destroying our regimental base.

Your Sincerely,
The Members of the 95th Rifles.
Hey dude no problem for that stuff. Maybe next time don't focus on one aspect of a game to "base your regimental system" off of and actually become a good leader and don't use a broken system of a game as a cruch.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: DanielG453 on February 17, 2018, 08:02:51 pm
Thanks, to all the crying about Rifles the 95th will in our Event tonight will only be able to field six Riflemen.

The accuracy debuff would have been enough but, it seems that this now a punishment, thank you for destroying our regimental base.

Your Sincerely,
The Members of the 95th Rifles.
Hey dude no problem for that stuff. Maybe next time don't focus on one aspect of a game to "base your regimental system" off of and actually become a good leader and don't use a broken system of a game as a cruch.

Well if you had any intellect you would understand as a Rifle Regiment it might make sense for us to play Rifles. The 95th to correct the deficit of information also has Line and Lights. So, I think your leadership comment is uncalled for. So, here's a bit of advice lets talk about the game and its problems not the leadership of other regiments.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Etherton on February 18, 2018, 02:19:37 am
Thanks, to all the crying about Rifles the 95th will in our Event tonight will only be able to field six Riflemen.

The accuracy debuff would have been enough but, it seems that this now a punishment, thank you for destroying our regimental base.

Your Sincerely,
The Members of the 95th Rifles.
Hey dude no problem for that stuff. Maybe next time don't focus on one aspect of a game to "base your regimental system" off of and actually become a good leader and don't use a broken system of a game as a cruch.

Says the leader of a 'Polish Lancers' regiment. Why arent you just a regular 'Polish Regiment' seems to be you are focusing on one aspect of a game to base your regiment off of. Maybe you should become a good leader, then again Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Bluehawk on February 18, 2018, 03:35:00 am
Keep it civil.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepper on February 18, 2018, 04:27:03 am
Thanks, to all the crying about Rifles the 95th will in our Event tonight will only be able to field six Riflemen.

The accuracy debuff would have been enough but, it seems that this now a punishment, thank you for destroying our regimental base.

Your Sincerely,
The Members of the 95th Rifles.
Hey dude no problem for that stuff. Maybe next time don't focus on one aspect of a game to "base your regimental system" off of and actually become a good leader and don't use a broken system of a game as a cruch.

Says the leader of a 'Polish Lancers' regiment. Why arent you just a regular 'Polish Regiment' seems to be you are focusing on one aspect of a game to base your regiment off of. Maybe you should become a good leader, then again Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Because Cav isnt in the game yet?  :-\ so I can't cry that an update broke my regiments experience yet. It seems you forget that there is NOTHING in the game that counters lights and rifles.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: CharlieTwoFive on February 18, 2018, 07:15:22 am
You're slowly sliding off topic, guys! ;)

B2T: Reducing the rifleman slots from 10 to 6 was a very good thing to do in regard to public matches. It was definitely past due!

^ (I know that at this point I'm repeating myself (see Reply #61))

However, now that 40% of the riflemen are off the field they still lead the scoreboards (https://imgur.com/a/3lxpZ) with kill-death-ratios most time way off the charts. In my experience 90% of my deaths are caused by riflemen - no exaggeration. Especially on low populated servers on maps like Sharpton or Fort Christina riflemen dominate the battlefield far out of reach from the other players. Watching them picking off your entire team coming from the spawn is really painful and within a few minutes the entire team disconnected out of frustration because they were unable to even get close to them to effectively return fire without getting instantly shot in the face by one of the riflemen.

Regardless the decrease of numbers of riflemen on the field they are still extremly powerful; of course they are supposed to be - up to a certain point. They should keep their accuracy and the number of six riflemen is totally fine in my opinion, too but I still think that the reload time needs to be increased. We have hashed and rehashed that issue in this thread in the past and I think we all agree on that by now. Another 3 seconds added to the reload time should be thoroughly acceptable. Give players a little more time (to attempt) avoiding that sort of accurate "sniper" (Please do not lapidate me for using that word) fire.

People who like to play riflemen will probably now go to the barricades. At this point everyone who still thinks that rifleman aren't overpowered (OP) is definitely not watching this problem objectively.

Best regards,


CharlieTwoFive
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Secian on February 18, 2018, 07:31:15 am
So happy rifles have been decreased...absolutely game-breaking and a crutch unit. It got to the point where I would have liked them to be removed until cav could come in and counter them but this is probably a more fair balance. Personally every lb I've played has never had rifles and only lights. Rifles are so game-breaking I figured they were banned because of how blatantly OP they are.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Caselius on February 18, 2018, 12:06:43 pm
I think there is two things to consider in this: both public and linebattle gameplay which are two distinct things and complaints on one don't necessarily apply on another.

What I have seen myself since the last patch is that at-least in organized play the rifles have been nerfed to oblivion when compared to lights. Don't get me wrong, accuracy nerf and reload speed change (I haven't noticed the latter) could have been enough. Hardcore mode, at least from my experiences has had an positive impact on it due having less camp-shooting fest going on due limited ammo count and more line vs line action.

Easy fix on this would be to make class-limits server-side, this would please both public servers and linebattles as organizers could decide if there is specific classes and which numbers themselves. This would solve the problem for now and I think every light unit will be just fine after cavalry and class specific buffs and debuffs get implemented.

And if someone brings up the rifles card for me, I play lights in events.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Stasiulek on February 18, 2018, 05:06:33 pm
Says the leader of a 'Polish Lancers' regiment. Why arent you just a regular 'Polish Regiment' seems to be you are focusing on one aspect of a game to base your regiment off of. Maybe you should become a good leader, then again Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Says the WELL-KNOWN leader of a couple of 3 week NW regiments, who played for Pieter and learned being salty from him. Cmon! Is insulting other regs and their leaders the only thing you do on this forum? You'd better go back to NW and form another reg which will diaband after a week. Thx in advance...
Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Because only english leaders are good and skilled? Once again plz watch what are writing there. This community is much more different than the one which exists on NW. You'll have to get used to it...
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 18, 2018, 09:19:20 pm
this Rifleman boogeyman thing has to stop.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Viriathus on February 19, 2018, 01:50:10 pm
Keep it civil.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Intel Guardian on February 19, 2018, 02:52:50 pm
nope
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Etherton on February 21, 2018, 12:38:51 am
Says the leader of a 'Polish Lancers' regiment. Why arent you just a regular 'Polish Regiment' seems to be you are focusing on one aspect of a game to base your regiment off of. Maybe you should become a good leader, then again Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Says the WELL-KNOWN leader of a couple of 3 week NW regiments, who played for Pieter and learned being salty from him. Cmon! Is insulting other regs and their leaders the only thing you do on this forum? You'd better go back to NW and form another reg which will diaband after a week. Thx in advance...
Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Because only english leaders are good and skilled? Once again plz watch what are writing there. This community is much more different than the one which exists on NW. You'll have to get used to it...

sorry who are you? some loud mouthed random polak who thinks he knows people based on 0 information (learnt salting 2 years before meeting pieter). Ive spent 90 days on this forum and I cant see where you believe ive spent it all insulting other regiments, gladly find all of my 70 or so posts and check if you want. Sarcasm time (or is it?) Everyone knows English leaders are and always will be the best regardless of whether its a game or actual history. We are the most superior nation to ever exist. Wouldnt expect you to understand such vast success however. Cant recall you ever doing anything noteable (if we are gonna compare dick sizes)

But i digress, Rifles have been fairly nerfed in public battles but unfairly nerfed in private events. Should be upto event leaders to decide class limits. Also the Bakers rifle ingame is completely accurate and there are recorded kills in excess of 200-300+ meters at least so imo their accuracy is fine however i get that until cav enters the game they are op. Thats the devs issue though so until cav is in then i think rifles should stay as they are for historical accuracy
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepper on February 21, 2018, 05:07:58 am
I just don't understand how you can't get it thru your skull thatTHERE IS NO COUNTER IN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE GAME TO RIFLES OR LIGHT INFANTRY.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 21, 2018, 06:00:31 am
I just don't understand how you can't get it thru your skull thatTHERE IS NO COUNTER IN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE GAME TO RIFLES OR LIGHT INFANTRY.

there is, the riflemen on your team, either on line battles or public army battlefield a rifleman's work is to counter those rilemen positioning themselves on sniping positions. This is just common sense and as a rifleman myself one of my priorities besides shooting at clusters is to kill the riflemen who can cause some damage when my team is gathered somewhere.

also i almost forgot to mention flag bearers, those are important targets as well, i know for a fact as i have some friends who are godlike with their flags, but nobody seems to complain about it because it's embarrassing to admit that you and other 6 people got killed by a single flag bearer.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Etherton on February 21, 2018, 11:10:02 am
I just don't understand how you can't get it thru your skull thatTHERE IS NO COUNTER IN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE GAME TO RIFLES OR LIGHT INFANTRY.

Apart from actually being a good leader? Its not hard, besides asking for them to be nerfed is like asking a ww2 dev team to reduce the fire rate on an mg42 because it's too fast compared to other guns. You gotta deal with what you got and learn to beat skirms. Easiest option is to get your skirms to fight them before you flank. Teamwork makes the dream work, Not requesting nerfs.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on February 21, 2018, 04:22:49 pm
Friendly reminder that you a playing a game in alpha. I'd rather the devs work on adding new features than balance things that may not matter at a later stage.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 21, 2018, 05:10:11 pm
Maybe have Maps with more rifleman slots, or no slots at all(depending on maps open spaces). Also when buffs come into the game it may change things a lot. Balance though may be a thing that is unattainable just like in real warfare. For the people with uniform love addiction the choice of muskets/rifles seems to be on the menu in the spawn login screen. As it is on the Public server now however Rifleman are the gold class that taste like a pay to win. It is hurting the game for new players that feel they die to much(easy prey, noobs). Without a medic fast respawn nearby or capture point closer to the fight(adjustable spawn) players grow tired of running back to the fight over, and over again. You hear it in VOIP, you see it in game play, and you watch people leave the server in frustration. I am sure it is funny to some people, but not a marketable point. If all you want or care about is your experience in the game that is fine. However I see past my own experience with a trained observers eye/ear, and would like to see this game grow.

Thank you, and I will be here all week...

(https://i.imgur.com/t36lnPx.png)
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Stasiulek on February 24, 2018, 10:55:38 pm
Says the leader of a 'Polish Lancers' regiment. Why arent you just a regular 'Polish Regiment' seems to be you are focusing on one aspect of a game to base your regiment off of. Maybe you should become a good leader, then again Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Says the WELL-KNOWN leader of a couple of 3 week NW regiments, who played for Pieter and learned being salty from him. Cmon! Is insulting other regs and their leaders the only thing you do on this forum? You'd better go back to NW and form another reg which will diaband after a week. Thx in advance...
Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Because only english leaders are good and skilled? Once again plz watch what are writing there. This community is much more different than the one which exists on NW. You'll have to get used to it...

sorry who are you? some loud mouthed random polak who thinks he knows people based on 0 information (learnt salting 2 years before meeting pieter). Ive spent 90 days on this forum and I cant see where you believe ive spent it all insulting other regiments, gladly find all of my 70 or so posts and check if you want. Sarcasm time (or is it?) Everyone knows English leaders are and always will be the best regardless of whether its a game or actual history. We are the most superior nation to ever exist. Wouldnt expect you to understand such vast success however. Cant recall you ever doing anything noteable (if we are gonna compare dick sizes)

But i digress, Rifles have been fairly nerfed in public battles but unfairly nerfed in private events. Should be upto event leaders to decide class limits. Also the Bakers rifle ingame is completely accurate and there are recorded kills in excess of 200-300+ meters at least so imo their accuracy is fine however i get that until cav enters the game they are op. Thats the devs issue though so until cav is in then i think rifles should stay as they are for historical accuracy
Wait wot? Explain me one more time what are you, thx ^^
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Etherton on February 25, 2018, 12:10:18 am
Says the leader of a 'Polish Lancers' regiment. Why arent you just a regular 'Polish Regiment' seems to be you are focusing on one aspect of a game to base your regiment off of. Maybe you should become a good leader, then again Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Says the WELL-KNOWN leader of a couple of 3 week NW regiments, who played for Pieter and learned being salty from him. Cmon! Is insulting other regs and their leaders the only thing you do on this forum? You'd better go back to NW and form another reg which will diaband after a week. Thx in advance...
Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Because only english leaders are good and skilled? Once again plz watch what are writing there. This community is much more different than the one which exists on NW. You'll have to get used to it...

sorry who are you? some loud mouthed random polak who thinks he knows people based on 0 information (learnt salting 2 years before meeting pieter). Ive spent 90 days on this forum and I cant see where you believe ive spent it all insulting other regiments, gladly find all of my 70 or so posts and check if you want. Sarcasm time (or is it?) Everyone knows English leaders are and always will be the best regardless of whether its a game or actual history. We are the most superior nation to ever exist. Wouldnt expect you to understand such vast success however. Cant recall you ever doing anything noteable (if we are gonna compare dick sizes)

But i digress, Rifles have been fairly nerfed in public battles but unfairly nerfed in private events. Should be upto event leaders to decide class limits. Also the Bakers rifle ingame is completely accurate and there are recorded kills in excess of 200-300+ meters at least so imo their accuracy is fine however i get that until cav enters the game they are op. Thats the devs issue though so until cav is in then i think rifles should stay as they are for historical accuracy
Wait wot? Explain me one more time what are you, thx ^^
Bit of a childish comeback. This forum needs to be 16+
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Absol on February 25, 2018, 01:21:47 am
Keep it civil.
:thinking:
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Stasiulek on February 25, 2018, 09:59:22 am
Says the leader of a 'Polish Lancers' regiment. Why arent you just a regular 'Polish Regiment' seems to be you are focusing on one aspect of a game to base your regiment off of. Maybe you should become a good leader, then again Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Says the WELL-KNOWN leader of a couple of 3 week NW regiments, who played for Pieter and learned being salty from him. Cmon! Is insulting other regs and their leaders the only thing you do on this forum? You'd better go back to NW and form another reg which will diaband after a week. Thx in advance...
Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Because only english leaders are good and skilled? Once again plz watch what are writing there. This community is much more different than the one which exists on NW. You'll have to get used to it...

sorry who are you? some loud mouthed random polak who thinks he knows people based on 0 information (learnt salting 2 years before meeting pieter). Ive spent 90 days on this forum and I cant see where you believe ive spent it all insulting other regiments, gladly find all of my 70 or so posts and check if you want. Sarcasm time (or is it?) Everyone knows English leaders are and always will be the best regardless of whether its a game or actual history. We are the most superior nation to ever exist. Wouldnt expect you to understand such vast success however. Cant recall you ever doing anything noteable (if we are gonna compare dick sizes)

But i digress, Rifles have been fairly nerfed in public battles but unfairly nerfed in private events. Should be upto event leaders to decide class limits. Also the Bakers rifle ingame is completely accurate and there are recorded kills in excess of 200-300+ meters at least so imo their accuracy is fine however i get that until cav enters the game they are op. Thats the devs issue though so until cav is in then i think rifles should stay as they are for historical accuracy
Wait wot? Explain me one more time what are you, thx ^^
Bit of a childish comeback. This forum needs to be 16+
So wtf are you doing there? ^^
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Etherton on February 25, 2018, 09:11:25 pm
Says the leader of a 'Polish Lancers' regiment. Why arent you just a regular 'Polish Regiment' seems to be you are focusing on one aspect of a game to base your regiment off of. Maybe you should become a good leader, then again Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Says the WELL-KNOWN leader of a couple of 3 week NW regiments, who played for Pieter and learned being salty from him. Cmon! Is insulting other regs and their leaders the only thing you do on this forum? You'd better go back to NW and form another reg which will diaband after a week. Thx in advance...
Poles were never very proficient in Military knowledge
Because only english leaders are good and skilled? Once again plz watch what are writing there. This community is much more different than the one which exists on NW. You'll have to get used to it...

sorry who are you? some loud mouthed random polak who thinks he knows people based on 0 information (learnt salting 2 years before meeting pieter). Ive spent 90 days on this forum and I cant see where you believe ive spent it all insulting other regiments, gladly find all of my 70 or so posts and check if you want. Sarcasm time (or is it?) Everyone knows English leaders are and always will be the best regardless of whether its a game or actual history. We are the most superior nation to ever exist. Wouldnt expect you to understand such vast success however. Cant recall you ever doing anything noteable (if we are gonna compare dick sizes)

But i digress, Rifles have been fairly nerfed in public battles but unfairly nerfed in private events. Should be upto event leaders to decide class limits. Also the Bakers rifle ingame is completely accurate and there are recorded kills in excess of 200-300+ meters at least so imo their accuracy is fine however i get that until cav enters the game they are op. Thats the devs issue though so until cav is in then i think rifles should stay as they are for historical accuracy
Wait wot? Explain me one more time what are you, thx ^^
Bit of a childish comeback. This forum needs to be 16+
So wtf are you doing there? ^^

Again please stop with such childish comebacks, this is a post about rifleman not about your attempts to be immature. Get back on topic.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepper on February 26, 2018, 02:13:39 am
The topic was simply about rifleman and you chose to have a melt down because of a update in a game that's in alpha.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Stasiulek on February 26, 2018, 08:23:36 am
Again please stop with such childish comebacks, this is a post about rifleman not about your attempts to be immature. Get back on topic.
Sure, but... Didn't you start to insult Pepper?
(https://i.imgur.com/imcpjLV.png)
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: provo on February 26, 2018, 10:21:14 am
this Rifleman boogeyman thing has to stop.

There is no boogeyman. Rifles completely destroy the Napoleonic feel of the game. The moment you decide to peek your head out is the moment all the rifles begin to spam you with perfectly accurate bullets from across the map. You simply can't even have them in linebattles because they can shred lines to pieces seconds after spawn.

I just don't understand how you can't get it thru your skull thatTHERE IS NO COUNTER IN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE GAME TO RIFLES OR LIGHT INFANTRY.

there is, the riflemen on your team, either on line battles or public army battlefield a rifleman's work is to counter those rilemen positioning themselves on sniping positions. This is just common sense and as a rifleman myself one of my priorities besides shooting at clusters is to kill the riflemen who can cause some damage when my team is gathered somewhere.

also i almost forgot to mention flag bearers, those are important targets as well, i know for a fact as i have some friends who are godlike with their flags, but nobody seems to complain about it because it's embarrassing to admit that you and other 6 people got killed by a single flag bearer.

So you just flat out admit the only way to counter riflemen is to use other riflemen?
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Etherton on February 26, 2018, 11:14:04 am
The topic was simply about rifleman and you chose to have a melt down because of a update in a game that's in alpha.

Who are you? Lol. Everything mentioned is about rifleman. Nothing wrong with them at all, they aren't even as accurate as they should be and are easy to kill as a line leader without much struggle.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Stasiulek on February 26, 2018, 03:12:10 pm
The topic was simply about rifleman and you chose to have a melt down because of a update in a game that's in alpha.

Who are you? Lol. Everything mentioned is about rifleman. Nothing wrong with them at all, they aren't even as accurate as they should be and are easy to kill as a line leader without much struggle.
Ofc... When you didn't play NW and didn't take part in any well-known tournaments you're nothing and you should leave this forum!
Holdfast community > NW community
Look how do people from NW behave...
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: DanielG453 on February 26, 2018, 03:12:29 pm
this Rifleman boogeyman thing has to stop.

There is no boogeyman. Rifles completely destroy the Napoleonic feel of the game. The moment you decide to peek your head out is the moment all the rifles begin to spam you with perfectly accurate bullets from across the map. You simply can't even have them in linebattles because they can shred lines to pieces seconds after spawn.

I just don't understand how you can't get it thru your skull thatTHERE IS NO COUNTER IN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE GAME TO RIFLES OR LIGHT INFANTRY.

there is, the riflemen on your team, either on line battles or public army battlefield a rifleman's work is to counter those rilemen positioning themselves on sniping positions. This is just common sense and as a rifleman myself one of my priorities besides shooting at clusters is to kill the riflemen who can cause some damage when my team is gathered somewhere.

also i almost forgot to mention flag bearers, those are important targets as well, i know for a fact as i have some friends who are godlike with their flags, but nobody seems to complain about it because it's embarrassing to admit that you and other 6 people got killed by a single flag bearer.

So you just flat out admit the only way to counter riflemen is to use other riflemen?

Riflemen were a key part of the wars the United Kingdom used them as a key part of their infantry.  So, please explain to me how that ruins the Napoleonic feel of the game? Technically, the French should not have Rifles, this is why they are armed with Cavalry muskets in Holdfast.  Rifles are supposed to be more accurate than the lines this is why there are less of them, now we have a paradox that a Line can outshoot Rifles and so can Light Infantry.

Additionally, have you ever attended a Linebattle with Rifles in it?  To me, it sounds like you have no idea just how ridiculous this update is. The best way to counter Rifles is to use cover and intelligence I have seen Lines defeat Rifles before. The other key to defeating Rifles is teamwork something that most regiment leaders are reluctant to do.

As Etherton rightly pointed out, the Rifles in Holdfast are underpowered in comparison to their realistic accuracy.  Personally, I am more annoyed that most people just cry it's the Rifles fault without having any understanding of them.

Finally, by far the most annoying thing was the unlisted reduction in Rifles from 10 to 6 - this has caused huge issues in Private Linebattles and was a clear disregard for the role of Rifle Regiments within the Community.  I am looking forward to the next update so, we can finally set our own server-side class limits. Them we won't need to have these petty arguments.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: NDog on February 26, 2018, 03:13:47 pm
this Rifleman boogeyman thing has to stop.

There is no boogeyman. Rifles completely destroy the Napoleonic feel of the game. The moment you decide to peek your head out is the moment all the rifles begin to spam you with perfectly accurate bullets from across the map. You simply can't even have them in linebattles because they can shred lines to pieces seconds after spawn.

Looks like you haven't played the new update yet, they have been nerfed to oblivion, the max range on the rifles is around 160m (longest historical shot si around 550m) and their accuracy is shit compered to lights and line. I am not going to complain about the nubers decrese, but it would be great that there is a system where server owners can change class limits. If you still experiance that kind of gameplay where rifleman are just owning the whole server I would blame public regiments like the 1stKRRC or better know as the KRRC. On public servers they just camp on the largest hill and snipe people.

I just don't understand how you can't get it thru your skull thatTHERE IS NO COUNTER IN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE GAME TO RIFLES OR LIGHT INFANTRY.

there is, the riflemen on your team, either on line battles or public army battlefield a rifleman's work is to counter those rilemen positioning themselves on sniping positions. This is just common sense and as a rifleman myself one of my priorities besides shooting at clusters is to kill the riflemen who can cause some damage when my team is gathered somewhere.

also i almost forgot to mention flag bearers, those are important targets as well, i know for a fact as i have some friends who are godlike with their flags, but nobody seems to complain about it because it's embarrassing to admit that you and other 6 people got killed by a single flag bearer.

So you just flat out admit the only way to counter riflemen is to use other riflemen?

Well I partially agree with you on this one, but since the nerf there is a new counter to rifles, the light infantry. The lights curently have better accuracy than the rifles and a longer range and even the line can outshoot rifleman.

Have a nice day,
LCpl
Francis Cooper
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: DanielG453 on February 26, 2018, 03:17:12 pm
The topic was simply about rifleman and you chose to have a melt down because of a update in a game that's in alpha.

Who are you? Lol. Everything mentioned is about rifleman. Nothing wrong with them at all, they aren't even as accurate as they should be and are easy to kill as a line leader without much struggle.
Ofc... When you didn't play NW and didn't take part in any well-known tournaments you're nothing and you should leave this forum!
Holdfast community > NW community
Look how do people from NW behave...

This is pot calling kettle black, perhaps if you just ignore what he says and don't keep this cancer going it will keep this community from becoming like NW!

Nothing personal, but it had to be said.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on February 26, 2018, 03:59:47 pm
this Rifleman boogeyman thing has to stop.

There is no boogeyman. Rifles completely destroy the Napoleonic feel of the game. The moment you decide to peek your head out is the moment all the rifles begin to spam you with perfectly accurate bullets from across the map. You simply can't even have them in linebattles because they can shred lines to pieces seconds after spawn.

I just don't understand how you can't get it thru your skull thatTHERE IS NO COUNTER IN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE GAME TO RIFLES OR LIGHT INFANTRY.

there is, the riflemen on your team, either on line battles or public army battlefield a rifleman's work is to counter those rilemen positioning themselves on sniping positions. This is just common sense and as a rifleman myself one of my priorities besides shooting at clusters is to kill the riflemen who can cause some damage when my team is gathered somewhere.

also i almost forgot to mention flag bearers, those are important targets as well, i know for a fact as i have some friends who are godlike with their flags, but nobody seems to complain about it because it's embarrassing to admit that you and other 6 people got killed by a single flag bearer.

So you just flat out admit the only way to counter riflemen is to use other riflemen?

Riflemen were a key part of the wars the United Kingdom used them as a key part of their infantry.  So, please explain to me how that ruins the Napoleonic feel of the game? Technically, the French should not have Rifles, this is why they are armed with Cavalry muskets in Holdfast.  Rifles are supposed to be more accurate than the lines this is why there are less of them, now we have a paradox that a Line can outshoot Rifles and so can Light Infantry.

Additionally, have you ever attended a Linebattle with Rifles in it?  To me, it sounds like you have no idea just how ridiculous this update is. The best way to counter Rifles is to use cover and intelligence I have seen Lines defeat Rifles before. The other key to defeating Rifles is teamwork something that most regiment leaders are reluctant to do.

As Etherton rightly pointed out, the Rifles in Holdfast are underpowered in comparison to their realistic accuracy.  Personally, I am more annoyed that most people just cry it's the Rifles fault without having any understanding of them.

Finally, by far the most annoying thing was the unlisted reduction in Rifles from 10 to 6 - this has caused huge issues in Private Linebattles and was a clear disregard for the role of Rifle Regiments within the Community.  I am looking forward to the next update so, we can finally set our own server-side class limits. Them we won't need to have these petty arguments.

The game is not Realistic btw. For starters your rifles would require cleaning after less than a dozen rounds. Not to mention fatigue, poor diet, and blisters among just a few annoyances(Oh I was in the Infantry). So the Nappy era feel is mainly a veneer with players hiding, using cover, and intelligence to beat the small handful of superior armed small teams???? And you don't see this as a problem? No counter, or they counter one another??? Historical accuracy is not the best platform to be a proponent of such a unbalancing factor in the game. Balance is not there, as of present.

Server controls will be a considerable relief to this I am all on board with that.   
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 26, 2018, 07:12:58 pm
Everyone will complain about Rifles for no real reason tbh, even if you justify their performance with historical data, millennials and some other kids will find a reason to moan about it. In public games there is no more than 5 or 6 names among the riflemen who can actually make trouble for the enemy team. In line battles I have to say that if you get picked , baited or wiped by some riflemen is the officers fault and your own lack of training to exercise maneuvers, officers have spy glasses btw, so they should be aware of the battlefield. Players are responsible for their own training, so if you can't aim for shit, is not the rifleman's fault nor if you have a wooden pc. Anyways it has been like this since the start of online gaming...
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Intel Guardian on February 26, 2018, 08:47:09 pm
millennials lmao
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: provo on February 26, 2018, 10:54:05 pm
Everyone will complain about Rifles for no real reason tbh, even if you justify their performance with historical data, millennials and some other kids will find a reason to moan about it. In public games there is no more than 5 or 6 names among the riflemen who can actually make trouble for the enemy team. In line battles I have to say that if you get picked , baited or wiped by some riflemen is the officers fault and your own lack of training to exercise maneuvers, officers have spy glasses btw, so they should be aware of the battlefield. Players are responsible for their own training, so if you can't aim for shit, is not the rifleman's fault nor if you have a wooden pc. Anyways it has been like this since the start of online gaming...
Historical data? When will the reload time be upped to 60 seconds? The only people who defend rifles are the people who are in rifle LARP groups.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 26, 2018, 11:12:38 pm
Everyone will complain about Rifles for no real reason tbh, even if you justify their performance with historical data, millennials and some other kids will find a reason to moan about it. In public games there is no more than 5 or 6 names among the riflemen who can actually make trouble for the enemy team. In line battles I have to say that if you get picked , baited or wiped by some riflemen is the officers fault and your own lack of training to exercise maneuvers, officers have spy glasses btw, so they should be aware of the battlefield. Players are responsible for their own training, so if you can't aim for shit, is not the rifleman's fault nor if you have a wooden pc. Anyways it has been like this since the start of online gaming...
Historical data? When will the reload time be upped to 60 seconds? The only people who defend rifles are the people who are in rifle LARP groups.

so everyone should reload at the same rate if that's your issue.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: rockwall56 on February 27, 2018, 12:33:52 am
They do plan to nerf the Rifleman which I 100% agree with. Deleting or lowering the amount of rifles allowed out ruin Rifle based regiments, but that's not really my concern b/c they are just extremely OP.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Etherton on February 27, 2018, 11:33:12 am
They do plan to nerf the Rifleman which I 100% agree with. Deleting or lowering the amount of rifles allowed out ruin Rifle based regiments, but that's not really my concern b/c they are just extremely OP.
But they aren't op? Rifles are meant to be accurate. As was mentioned earlier it seems to mostly be people moaning about public servers. In actual events lines can defeat rifles easily with a good leader. Perhaps the competent leaders don't post on the thread as they know how to beat us and dont need to moan to get us nerfed  ::)
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Wigster600 on February 27, 2018, 04:39:55 pm
Anyone can counter a rifleman, they're still mortal, you all need to get gud.

- Person who always plays line infantry.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Mazz on February 27, 2018, 05:46:11 pm
Once cavalry are introduced, this discussion will flip. 
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on February 27, 2018, 06:43:00 pm
Anyone can counter a rifleman, they're still mortal, you all need to get gud.

- Person who always plays line infantry.

You're a gentleman and a scholar.



I can't wait to see cavalry, i'm pretty sure i'll have a good laugh.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Etherton on March 02, 2018, 06:28:37 pm
Once cavalry are introduced, this discussion will flip.

nah because rifleman will then be returned to their full state with increased accuracy meaning its fair again :DDD
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: TooL69 on March 02, 2018, 07:41:16 pm
Rifles were not much superior to muskets at a distance of up to 200 yards, while they were inferior to them in the rate of fire. At a distance of more than 200+ yards, the rifles had a noticeable superiority over the muskets.
But this is in the "sterile" shooting range conditions ... According to Hess, in real combat the effective diaprazon of rifles (during the civil war) was approximately 114 yards.
http://www.brettschulte.net/CWBlog/2010/06/14/civil-war-book-review-the-rifle-musket-in-civil-war-combat-reality-and-myth/
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/380944/pdf
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on March 03, 2018, 02:06:18 pm
When we get the ability to adjust the amounts of classes in a server it will be interesting to see how one side with the 95th green jackets do against the other classes. I think we all know how this is going to play out? The game without rifleman has lines, with becomes a skirmishers game. Skirmishing maps should have light infantry, and cavalry whose rolls were scouting or screening. You may want to consider a 95th green jacket novice type armed with a musket for the Sharpeheads. Regardless, as is the public matches are a gang bang skirmish. Fun for some, frustrating for others, and novelty for many. Don't get me wrong I love the chaos, just not a immersion type game some may desire in the community.

(https://i.imgur.com/t36lnPx.png)
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Tobutori on March 04, 2018, 11:09:05 pm
I think the Riflemen are good as they are.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: CharlieTwoFive on March 05, 2018, 07:13:00 am
I think the Riflemen are good as they are.

Apparently this was written in full disregard of the entire conversation on the last eight pages. Of course, no rifleman main would like to see it get more difficult for oneself. Reasons given why to nerf riflemen are clear as day and totally comprehensible.

Without a doubt, they need further adjustment and I'm happy to hear that it is being worked on.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LUN4TIC on March 06, 2018, 03:16:44 pm
Hey guys,

Maybe a fresh perspective form a new player. I bought the game on Sunday. I saw the rifles were always taken first. So I assumed, must be a good class then. To add I almost refunded the game because I could not hit ANYTHING with the muskets.

Then I tried the rifle and I was scoring kills up to 130 meters and even further. I scored 2nd in my team with something like 23-5 kdr. Above me in my team was another rifleman. So from a new players perspective they are easier to get kills with. I think it has to do with the accuracy, but also it has less bullet drop. I did not have to aim as high as with the other guns. In that round I hit at least 25% of my shots. These are numbers that are standard for modern (non elite) infantry divisions with assault rifles at range. So for the 1800's this is huge.

After practice I am starting to get better with the musket though. So I think the difference is not as big as it seems at first. And I also think in games like these you should really not look at KDR. Because you would adopt a less fun play style to just not die.

So TL:DR: Rifles are easier to shoot. But if the muskets close in when you are reloading, You die, fast. They just seem to not do that a lot of the time and just sit there.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: TooL69 on March 06, 2018, 09:47:52 pm
Hey guys,

Maybe a fresh perspective form a new player. I bought the game on Sunday. I saw the rifles were always taken first. So I assumed, must be a good class then. To add I almost refunded the game because I could not hit ANYTHING with the muskets.

Then I tried the rifle and I was scoring kills up to 130 meters and even further. I scored 2nd in my team with something like 23-5 kdr. Above me in my team was another rifleman. So from a new players perspective they are easier to get kills with. I think it has to do with the accuracy, but also it has less bullet drop. I did not have to aim as high as with the other guns. In that round I hit at least 25% of my shots. These are numbers that are standard for modern (non elite) infantry divisions with assault rifles at range. So for the 1800's this is huge.

After practice I am starting to get better with the musket though. So I think the difference is not as big as it seems at first. And I also think in games like these you should really not look at KDR. Because you would adopt a less fun play style to just not die.

So TL:DR: Rifles are easier to shoot. But if the muskets close in when you are reloading, You die, fast. They just seem to not do that a lot of the time and just sit there.

If you talk about combat conditions, nowadays, at best, 1 out of 1000 bullets hits the target:
http://weaponsman.com/?p=20023
http://weaponsman.com/?p=20047
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on March 06, 2018, 09:56:07 pm
I could not hit ANYTHING with the muskets.

Then I tried the rifle and I was scoring kills up to 130 meters and even further. I scored 2nd in my team with something like 23-5 kdr.

(http://i63.tinypic.com/34yvj7r.png)
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LUN4TIC on March 07, 2018, 03:05:04 pm
If you talk about combat conditions, nowadays, at best, 1 out of 1000 bullets hits the target:
http://weaponsman.com/?p=20023
http://weaponsman.com/?p=20047
[/quote]

I was talking about on the range. This was back in early 2000. it is what our instructor told us. " we expect you to hit 25% to pass this part of the course, this is a realistic demand for non spec ops combatants". I understand that in combat it would be much less, but there are more factors to it than just the weapon, like fear etc. So I think you can not compare any game to that.

I could not hit ANYTHING with the muskets.

Then I tried the rifle and I was scoring kills up to 130 meters and even further. I scored 2nd in my team with something like 23-5 kdr.

(http://i63.tinypic.com/34yvj7r.png)

Not saying it happened consistently, but the kill feed showed me one in the 120's and one in the low 130's. I was really amazed. And I saw other players hit that far also with a rifle. You don't have to take my word for it, it should be easily reproducible by a more experienced player. 

Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: TooL69 on March 07, 2018, 10:33:05 pm
Quote
I was talking about on the range. This was back in early 2000. it is what our instructor told us. " we expect you to hit 25% to pass this part of the course, this is a realistic demand for non spec ops combatants". I understand that in combat it would be much less, but there are more factors to it than just the weapon, like fear etc. So I think you can not compare any game to that.

From the soldiers of the 18th century, 25% of hits to the target were also expected at 200-300 yards.

(https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/sas1/4348782/1057/1057_900.png)
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on March 08, 2018, 08:30:52 pm
I would say disable Riflemen until Cav/arty release. After those two are added the balancing will have to commence again anyways. New players and old will just get frustrated by them(you nasty marksman know who you are, you don't need the advantage that badly). Not pointing fingers at anyone(PEPE) though.
 
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: DanielG453 on March 08, 2018, 09:18:21 pm
I would say disable Riflemen until Cav/arty release. After those two are added the balancing will have to commence again anyways. New players and old will just get frustrated by them(you nasty marksman know who you are, you don't need the advantage that badly). Not pointing fingers at anyone(PEPE) though.

Could you guys please drop this, crying about Rifles. They are an essential class in Private Linebattles and are required to have a fun and balanced event. Rifles have been fixed in the latest update, and are now balanced, apart from the stupid cap of six. Looking forward to being able to set class limits server side.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Takerith on March 08, 2018, 10:22:29 pm
Quote
Could you guys please drop this, crying about Rifles. They are an essential class in Private Linebattles and are required to have a fun and balanced event. Rifles have been fixed in the latest update, and are now balanced, apart from the stupid cap of six. Looking forward to being able to set class limits server side.

In a game where melee isn't viable and the only objective is to get kills, what exactly is balanced about rifles? They outshoot any enemy lines, act in a loose, spread-out formation and can do really well against bayonets since they have swords. I think removing rifles is a bit silly (as, even with no counters, we can still playtest them and balance them against infantry) but don't act as if rifles aren't objectively the best class in the current build. In any game, when the only counter to a certain technique, class or playstyle is more of that technique, class or playstyle, something needs to change.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: DanielG453 on March 08, 2018, 11:49:23 pm
Quote
Could you guys please drop this, crying about Rifles. They are an essential class in Private Linebattles and are required to have a fun and balanced event. Rifles have been fixed in the latest update, and are now balanced, apart from the stupid cap of six. Looking forward to being able to set class limits server side.

In a game where melee isn't viable, and the only objective is to get kills, what exactly is balanced about rifles? They outshoot any enemy lines, act in a loose, spread-out formation and can do really well against bayonets since they have swords. I think removing rifles is a bit silly (as, even with no counters, we can still playtest them and balance them against infantry) but don't act as if rifles aren't objectively the best class in the current build. In any game, when the only counter to a certain technique, class or playstyle is more of that technique, class or playstyle, something needs to change.

Bayonets have greater range than swords thus meaning they often have the melee advantage. Personally, I find melee is viable with training. Nothing needs to change in the game just the tactical decisions of Regiment leaders in the field. We played the Rifles when they were unplayable in one of the recent updates; the devs corrected this in the latest patch - Even with the unplayable debuff people still complained about Rifles being "Over Powered" when in fact they were being outshot by Light Infantry. Please stop blaming the rifles for your problems in-game and improve your leadership skills.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: CharlieTwoFive on March 09, 2018, 09:52:56 am
Hey guys,

it looks like some of you have wrong information about what was really buffed/tweaked/nerfed about riflemen in the second to last update. The only two things that were changed were their accuracy on Hardcore Mode and the slot reduction from 10 to 6 slots.
In public matches they are as strong as always.

Parade example: Put 2 or 3 riflemen on the East-by-Northeast hill by what we british players refer to as "left village" on Sharpton and you will not be able to get rid of them without you charging them out of there with at least three times as many people. I've seen them holding that hill over entire rounds with all of them having K/Ds beyond 28/0. Every attempt to get them out of there without mobilizing the entire british team failed. Not needed to mention that the enemy team who was focusing the left village anyway did not make it any easier for us by shooting at us from behind trying to move up that damn sniper's nest.

That's why riflemen are currently subjects to overhaul (work in progress).

And whoever still thinks riflemen aren't OP should play "Desert Plains" on a moderately populated server without being a riflemen yourself once in a while. You will be surprised how this is going to turn out for you.

Best regards,
CharlieTwoFive
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepper on March 09, 2018, 10:38:31 am
Be Daniel be in a rifle regiment. Do incredible mental gymnastics when people say what you play as is over powered because there is no counter. Proceed to question said persons regimental leading everytime. Like pottery really.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on March 09, 2018, 07:19:19 pm
I can careless for personnel attacks from some faceless person on the interwebz(some of us are actual leaders in real life). Regardless, Riflemen currently are the number turn off in the game that people seem to bitch about the most. It doesn't help when good players use them consistently. Turn them off, or bring in the cavalry, or increase the reload time, and lower the accuracy more. New players will just quit playing if they are getting slaughtered all the time. If we want a Alpha game to thrive we should focus more on the RP aspect in Public Servers anyways. It is after all what many enjoy the most when they first start playing. Or we just hide shoot, and watch people rage quit after getting sick of being killed over and over again on their way to the front line.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on March 09, 2018, 07:48:55 pm
Hey guys,

it looks like some of you have wrong information about what was really buffed/tweaked/nerfed about riflemen in the second to last update. The only two things that were changed were their accuracy on Hardcore Mode and the slot reduction from 10 to 6 slots.
In public matches they are as strong as always.

...

Best regards,
CharlieTwoFive

Good clarification Charlie, thanks!
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Caselius on March 09, 2018, 09:06:57 pm
Be Daniel be in a rifle regiment. Do incredible mental gymnastics when people say what you play as is over powered because there is no counter. Proceed to question said persons regimental leading everytime. Like pottery really.

How about we'd drop personal arguments here, they don't further your argument in any way and make yourself look in bad light. This goes for everyone.
Please take to account that we play other classes than rifles as well. For example I've played rifles only in couple occasions for example.

What the solution for this whole rifleman problem is that servers should be able to set the limits. If server owners don't want riflemen they can disable the class and people whom prefer the opposite can do so as well. According to the devs the changeable class limits will be implemented so I figure everyone will get what they want.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on March 10, 2018, 02:20:47 pm
Yeah but the new players are getting angry, and are playing or getting a refund for the game which is not good. The primary focus should be on that imho. I would prefer leaving the rifleman in the game if new players stay because they enjoy the advantage it gives them, however if new players didn't know they are available they would enjoy the game playing like everyone else with horrible accuracy. Truly the best thing about the game is the inaccurate weapons we share. Volley fire is sexy, Infantry Lines are sexy, Players banter in game in the lines is why I play the game along with many others. As is Rifleman have no counter, and frustrate new players not mention make lines impossible to form. We have to create rules to enforce order for competitive play, because in public games it doesn't exist. Currently this is a Skirmish game, we hide, we peek, we shoot, we hide, we peek, we shoot. This is boring, spectating a Rifleman is by far the most boring thing to do in game. People will lose interest, because loading, peeking, and shooting gets old.

Server controls will be great, but new people will play on official servers. If all we care about is our personnel unrecorded score feed and not being the games ambassadors we will be lonely for it. Sorry but Rifleman just need to be disabled in public games until a proper counter is brought into the game. Or just keep them in and hope the new players don't mind being slaughtered by good players using them all the time and don't quit before finding a regiment that line battles.   
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Takerith on March 10, 2018, 03:53:39 pm

Bayonets have greater range than swords thus meaning they often have the melee advantage. Personally, I find melee is viable with training. Nothing needs to change in the game just the tactical decisions of Regiment leaders in the field. We played the Rifles when they were unplayable in one of the recent updates; the devs corrected this in the latest patch - Even with the unplayable debuff people still complained about Rifles being "Over Powered" when in fact they were being outshot by Light Infantry. Please stop blaming the rifles for your problems in-game and improve your leadership skills.

Daniel, you and Etherton seem to fall back on personal attacks on leaders remarkably quickly, and that's not really conducive to healthy discussion about the game. I'd appreciate it if you could attack people's arguments rather than their character. Anyway, back to the discussion at hand.

A bayonet having extra range over a sword meant very little in NW and it means very little now. In a game where one can only backpedal at a walking pace, there's not much to prevent a swordsman from just crowding up against someone with a bayonet. You can't kick or shove the person away from you, and stabbing someone who can side attack is very difficult (especially with the current state of hitboxes): the swordsman just has to move to the side of the person with a bayonet and swing. If the average rifleman can even match, let alone beat, the average line infantryman in melee, something has gone wrong. The advantages of a sword over a bayonet becomes obvious when you see a surgeon get 7 kills in a row in melee. This is ignoring the fact that any line who charges a group of rifles is guaranteed to take significant casualties from close-range rifle fire.

You say that rifles aren't overpowered, and that it's just bad leaders who don't know how to counter them. Riddle me this: what exactly is a line supposed to do against rifles? They can't outshoot them, they can't charge them in melee, and running away isn't always an option, especially when a rifle can score kills from 200m away. Perhaps in a map control mode, the line could simply hold their ground and be confident that the rifles can't force them off an important position, but the current standard game mode is a simple deathmatch. There is nothing that line infantry can do against rifles. Simple as. The only counter to riflemen is more riflemen, but, in any game, if the only counter to X is more of X, there is a balancing issue.

Of course it's silly that rifles be removed or completely stripped of their role just because they're overpowered. However, it must be admitted that they are overpowered before we can balance them properly for the finished game.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: TooL69 on March 10, 2018, 04:10:28 pm
Just increase the accuracy of the muskets so that they can fight the rifles.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Samurai on March 10, 2018, 04:58:17 pm
I think the only thing riflemen need is an increased reload time (20-30%). They're supposed to be accurate, and everyone knows they're accurate. Pay attention to where they are and position yourself accordingly. You'll find yourself getting picked off far less. With an increased reload time it'd allow for reg line to close larger gaps between themselves and the riflemen, more easily taking away their advantage.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on March 11, 2018, 05:27:59 am
I think the only thing riflemen need is an increased reload time (20-30%). They're supposed to be accurate, and everyone knows they're accurate. Pay attention to where they are and position yourself accordingly. You'll find yourself getting picked off far less. With an increased reload time it'd allow for reg line to close larger gaps between themselves and the riflemen, more easily taking away their advantage.

I agree. You have good ideas Samurai.

I think the reload time of rifles should float somewhere around 20 seconds (a musket is about 13).
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LUN4TIC on March 11, 2018, 01:04:03 pm
I think you can't really judge the real advantage of the rifles before the other classes have their positive traits and the rifles get their negative: reload speed. If the light infantry gets it's running and reloading speed buff, it can be a counter. But now only the rifles have an advantage the rest of the infantry are different skins with the same stats.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: TooL69 on March 11, 2018, 07:00:24 pm
Ideally
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ojk9_MBc1E
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on March 12, 2018, 03:32:56 pm
What about maps with limited classes on Public servers. A skirmish map with more available Rifle slots, and other maps that are line battle friendly? Capture and hold points sound good but still is Hide n Shoot. Meh, as is you have to play creepy snipee guy to live in the game for long. Similar to other shooter games, which for some is just fine that is how they have their fun(sniping people). However if the goal is a Napoleon Era Battlefield it will never come to pass in a public game without some kind of reason for all the people(cat herding) to gravitate to a line. By far the number one aggravation expressed by most players are typically the long trek back to line, and being picked off before you can rejoin(thx for auto run). Rifleman are just doing their job on the battlefield by picking you off during this time understood(I just suck at playing I know). I just think about new players, and what made me interested in staying on when I first started playing. It wasn't the hide shoot, or the crappy accuracy it was banter and community. The game is in Alpha though, it really just needs the other elements added prior to balancing, I just advise disabling Rifleman on Public Servers for the new players to not get disheartened because they suck at the game like me.   
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Etherton on March 14, 2018, 02:25:48 pm
I agree with a reload time increase to around 20s. That would work better and also nerfing the rifle accuracy until cav is added.

The fact I'm not in a rifle reg anymore hasn't changed my opinion I swear  ::)
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on March 14, 2018, 03:55:38 pm
I think you can't really judge the real advantage of the rifles before the other classes have their positive traits and the rifles get their negative: reload speed. If the light infantry gets it's running and reloading speed buff, it can be a counter. But now only the rifles have an advantage the rest of the infantry are different skins with the same stats.

That's a fair point. I tend to tell people that imbalance is just part of playing a game in alpha. When features are unfinished, it's hard to get a complete picture.

I agree with a reload time increase to around 20s. That would work better and also nerfing the rifle accuracy until cav is added.

The fact I'm not in a rifle reg anymore hasn't changed my opinion I swear  ::)

lol
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Ead on March 17, 2018, 07:31:31 am
I think you can't really judge the real advantage of the rifles before the other classes have their positive traits and the rifles get their negative: reload speed. If the light infantry gets it's running and reloading speed buff, it can be a counter. But now only the rifles have an advantage the rest of the infantry are different skins with the same stats.

I do tend to find it very odd that the other classes still don't have all their advantages/disadvantages in the game yet. I spent the first couple of months believing lights were different (even though it didn't feel that way). Would be very nice to actually have some meaning for them all.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Pepe The Frog on March 18, 2018, 08:05:41 pm
People here likes to come up with all sorts of bs tbh. The truth is that this is a shooter game which people force themselves to roleplay in line battles and new players who come looking for that should receive an ingame option to join a regiment.

Public games are played with a regular FPS mentality and new or bad players aren't protected from those more experienced that can pull 30+ kills, say a rifleman, a commando flag bearer, artillery or even infantry can do this. But people loves to pretend every single rifleman can do this, but when you look at the scoreboard, is just 1 or 2 while most of riflemen perform bellow average.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Marquis de Lafayette on March 25, 2018, 05:09:49 pm
I’ve found that there are two types of people who tend to complain about riflemen, some even advocating their removal from the game entirely:

1. The linebattle-focused officer who get so consistently targeted and killed by riflemen that he has thus grown to despise them. *cough Haybales cough*
2. The common player with the slow computer who always tries to pick rifleman but never get to play them. “If I can’t have them, no one can!”

These are the people who will tell riflemen to “learn to handle a real weapon” (which is in most cases an RNG-based musket that relies on luck more than anything). Though what bugs me the most is that a lot of people are unable to discern between good and bad riflemen, and will no matter what try to invalidate their skill. Even when undeniably good players like Jon_Snow or EN get a decent score or impressive kill, they will be waved off for having used a rifle to achieve it. There is a clear difference between good and bad riflemen, and it’s pretty easy to spot if you’d actually look. Good riflemen will have good positioning and a keen eye for flanking, whereas bad riflemen will basically play like an infantryman equipped with a rifle, and just follow the main group around. Moreover, good riflemen will prioritize their targets, such as officers and flagbearers. But most importantly: good riflemen will focus other riflemen. If you find yourself constantly getting killed by riflemen, then your team most likely has bad riflemen.

It’s also funny when people claim that rifles are OP and take no skill to use, they usually post a screenshot of them with like 20 kills as a rifleman as proof, even though any rifleman player worth his salt will be able to regularly maintain a score of upwards 25-30 kills per match, sometimes when not even playing as a rifleman. Though as previously mentioned, a good rifleman is not defined by the number of kills he's able to pull off, but rather who he kills.

That being said, I do agree that some matter of rifleman nerf is in order. The suggestion of an increased reload speed is great, because that will encourage riflemen to make their shots count, and not just mow down random infantrymen. An added bonus for killing other riflemen could also drive this point home even further. However, a nerf to the accuracy or range will just destroy the essence of the rifleman role and punish the people who’ve actually mastered the class.

I’m not biased at all btw.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Haybales on March 25, 2018, 06:28:57 pm
I do agree that some matter of rifleman nerf is in order.

Yes. It is. :)

Quote
I’m not biased at all btw.
p.s. This gave me a laugh. :P
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on March 25, 2018, 06:51:05 pm
I totally agree with Lafayette. Having seen how he performs with a rifle in game, I know he is being modest with 25-30 kills a game.

This really is a great point, your riflemen should be killing the enemy riflemen.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Samurai on March 25, 2018, 10:06:11 pm
I totally agree with Lafayette.

What if riflemen got fewer base points per rifle kill to reflect for their expected kill count relative to line infantry, and got a score bonus similar to killing and officer or flag bearer when killing riflemen? So a new player with no gaming experience playing a riflemen (and everyone else in the match) would be able to see on the scoreboard when they're contributing appropriately and performing well.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Marquis de Lafayette on March 25, 2018, 11:51:02 pm
I totally agree with Lafayette. Having seen how he performs with a rifle in game, I know he is being modest with 25-30 kills a game.

Appreciated! Though I really didn’t mean to toot my own horn with that post – was meant more as a general rifleman thing. Also in hindsight, my mentioning of the whole “x amount of kills per match” was a bit counterproductive to my initial point which was that riflemen should prioritize targets, and not try to score as many kills as possible. Just wanted to point out the misconception that anyone can be a good rifleman by simply picking the class.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Haybales on March 26, 2018, 05:52:34 pm
I totally agree with Lafayette.

What if riflemen got fewer base points per rifle kill to reflect for their expected kill count relative to line infantry, and got a score bonus similar to killing and officer or flag bearer when killing riflemen? So a new player with no gaming experience playing a riflemen (and everyone else in the match) would be able to see on the scoreboard when they're contributing appropriately and performing well.

That's a purely cosmetic fix and does nothing to the actual mechanics of the Riflemen; which is the problem most people have.

They need a mechanical nerf to their capabilities in one way or another; whether that be reload speed, movement speed, range, damage - I don't know.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Samurai on March 26, 2018, 11:28:59 pm
I totally agree with Lafayette.

What if riflemen got fewer base points per rifle kill to reflect for their expected kill count relative to line infantry, and got a score bonus similar to killing and officer or flag bearer when killing riflemen? So a new player with no gaming experience playing a riflemen (and everyone else in the match) would be able to see on the scoreboard when they're contributing appropriately and performing well.

That's a purely cosmetic fix and does nothing to the actual mechanics of the Riflemen; which is the problem most people have.

They need a mechanical nerf to their capabilities in one way or another; whether that be reload speed, movement speed, range, damage - I don't know.

It's not cosmetic. People generally like to climb the scoreboard, so if it's easier to climb the scoreboard by killing other riflemen and "doing your job", people will lean towards those actions as opposed to going for easy, less valuable targets.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Haybales on March 27, 2018, 02:21:38 am
I totally agree with Lafayette.

What if riflemen got fewer base points per rifle kill to reflect for their expected kill count relative to line infantry, and got a score bonus similar to killing and officer or flag bearer when killing riflemen? So a new player with no gaming experience playing a riflemen (and everyone else in the match) would be able to see on the scoreboard when they're contributing appropriately and performing well.

That's a purely cosmetic fix and does nothing to the actual mechanics of the Riflemen; which is the problem most people have.

They need a mechanical nerf to their capabilities in one way or another; whether that be reload speed, movement speed, range, damage - I don't know.

It's not cosmetic. People generally like to climb the scoreboard, so if it's easier to climb the scoreboard by killing other riflemen and "doing your job", people will lean towards those actions as opposed to going for easy, less valuable targets.

Nobody cares about the scoreboard as soon as the "X team is victorious" screen pops up. You forget your KDA, score, and position as soon as the next map rolls in. There is no linear leaderboard, and no leveling system - so points (or, XP/experience) means nothing right now.

Additionally, I'd argue that people do prefer to go for the easiest kill available - as Marquis de Lafayette says, there are few "good" rifleman that will priorities targets.

I don't think people would be satisfied with a change to +points per class kill. People want a mechanical nerf from what I've seen on discussions and in-game.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Lou on March 27, 2018, 10:01:32 pm
I really dont get the hate for riflemen, personally I think it's nice to have a class that is more elite. I would like to see more classes who excel in certain things alongside having general line infantry.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Nr.9 Noble on March 28, 2018, 04:27:41 am
I really dont get the hate for riflemen, personally I think it's nice to have a class that is more elite. I would like to see more classes who excel in certain things alongside having general line infantry.

As I do see your point, and to an extent I agree, I do feel that the "elite" advantage given to riflemen is purely that, an advantage with no disadvantage to counter the unarguably massive advantage riflemen have in terms of accuracy.

However, unlike what seems to be many at this point, I never find my experience on public servers to be "ruined" by riflemen.

If I were to recommend a change, it would probably be a longer reload time. Of course there could easily be a better way to balance riflemen but I feel that "massively" increasing their reload time to say double that of a typical line infantryman (this value could be lower or higher I am purely giving an example). This would allow people to close the gap after they see a rifleman fire and possibly create a balance good enough to integrate them into more organize line battles.

Now my recommendation has its counter such as the increase in reload time and ability for players to close distances could just allow the riflemen to sit back even more. I find this fair and my only obvious solution would be to possibly decrease the accuracy, but this comes with this own issues and could remove the sought after "elite" status from the riflemen altogether.

Feel free to refute or build onto my ideas although they come from various suggestions I have seen and personally I am yet to see a "full-proof" fix.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Jean-Baptiste on March 28, 2018, 04:41:47 am
I agree with a longer reload time for Riflemen.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Etherton on March 29, 2018, 11:24:07 am
Nerf Rifles!!!!
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Samurai on March 30, 2018, 01:57:47 am
Now my recommendation has its counter such as the increase in reload time and ability for players to close distances could just allow the riflemen to sit back even more.

They're already allowed to sit wherever they want. If they responded to an increase in reload time it would *encourage* them to sit back further, decreasing their accuracy, but giving them a cushion against rushing infantry. Still a trade off.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: CharlieTwoFive on March 30, 2018, 02:12:35 am

They're already allowed to sit wherever they want. If they responded to an increase in reload time it would *encourage* them to sit back further, decreasing their accuracy, but giving them a cushion against rushing infantry. Still a trade off.

The thing is that they are supposed to stay back and not be directly at the frontline. They should be snipers after all, not superaccurate rambos.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Nr.9 Noble on March 30, 2018, 02:43:09 am
As many have said before I would assume the addition of cavalry would be the main counter to riflemen but alas that will be much further down the line.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: LePoof on April 04, 2018, 07:27:01 pm
Public servers will be a skirmish battle until other elements prevail. I for one look forward to the new arrivals of mobile Arty/Cav. Maybe a Canoneer Class that spawns with a limbered Canon to counter Rifleman, or Hussars who can trample the bushes of sneaky little goblins like Layafette. For now however there is no reason to make Lines of battle other than enjoyment for those who find such being.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: TooL69 on April 06, 2018, 12:52:34 pm
Public servers will be a skirmish battle until other elements prevail. I for one look forward to the new arrivals of mobile Arty/Cav. Maybe a Canoneer Class that spawns with a limbered Canon to counter Rifleman, or Hussars who can trample the bushes of sneaky little goblins like Layafette. For now however there is no reason to make Lines of battle other than enjoyment for those who find such being.

The shootings on public servers look quite authentic, considering that during the Napoleonic wars most of the time they fought in a loose order.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Haybales on April 06, 2018, 10:20:50 pm
For now however there is no reason to make Lines of battle other than enjoyment for those who find such being.

This is probably the most accurate statement regarding Line Formations I've ever read on the forums or in-game.

Hopefully when incentives for forming lines make it into the game, this will change.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Well on July 31, 2018, 08:41:54 pm
I would, and I want to recommend this game to friends and others, but I won't.
Why? Riflemen. They are way OP and ruins the game for everyone else.
Playing on a 150player server, so 75 enemies, 6 of them riflemen. And those 6 stands for 2/3 of my deaths, and more than half of the kills in total. I have counted over several matches now.

I personally got about 20hours ingame, but this is it for me. Until they get a proper nerf or downside, there is no reason to keep playing. And take into consideration that I got a fast enough computer and internet connection allowing me to always play rifleman if I want to. And sure, I get 15-40 more kills as a rifleman, and 0-5 deaths total, but its not fun...
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Haybales on July 31, 2018, 09:25:26 pm
I would, and I want to recommend this game to friends and others, but I won't.
Why? Riflemen. They are way OP and ruins the game for everyone else.
Playing on a 150player server, so 75 enemies, 6 of them riflemen. And those 6 stands for 2/3 of my deaths, and more than half of the kills in total. I have counted over several matches now.

I personally got about 20hours ingame, but this is it for me. Until they get a proper nerf or downside, there is no reason to keep playing. And take into consideration that I got a fast enough computer and internet connection allowing me to always play rifleman if I want to. And sure, I get 15-40 more kills as a rifleman, and 0-5 deaths total, but its not fun...

1,635 hours of Holdfast to my account and I actually think I 100% agree with:

Quote
Playing on a 150player server, so 75 enemies, 6 of them riflemen. And those 6 stands for 2/3 of my deaths,

It's insane how such a small percentage of the total enemy force is so powerful.

Increase their reload speed, slightly nerf their accuracy, just something would be awesome.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Refleax on July 31, 2018, 09:27:52 pm
I would, and I want to recommend this game to friends and others, but I won't.
Why? Riflemen. They are way OP and ruins the game for everyone else.
Playing on a 150player server, so 75 enemies, 6 of them riflemen. And those 6 stands for 2/3 of my deaths, and more than half of the kills in total. I have counted over several matches now.

I personally got about 20hours ingame, but this is it for me. Until they get a proper nerf or downside, there is no reason to keep playing. And take into consideration that I got a fast enough computer and internet connection allowing me to always play rifleman if I want to. And sure, I get 15-40 more kills as a rifleman, and 0-5 deaths total, but its not fun...

Yes, indeed. We plan on nerfing rifleman once again during the melee update.

We did a slight nerf to the class when we released the Prussians but it wasn't enough.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Livington on August 05, 2018, 12:34:05 am
I see people mainly just shrugging the idea of increased reload times off. Why is that such a bad idea?

The only reason the rifle is more accurate is because it has, brace yourselves, rifling (or grooves). Either you could put the bullet in there and shoot, but that would barely be more accurate than a musket. If you wanted to use the rifling you had to but the balls in pieces of leather for it to grip and give the ball a spinning motion, increasing its accuracy. This of course is a lot more tedious to do and requires a bit more time, but again, it increases the accuracy.

This is a trade off which was dsicussed at the time. For example, the British (quite rightly many would say) chose to use rifles to a rather large extent. This was proven very effective against the French who still chose to remain with the musket for (virtually) all their skirmishing units favouring an increased rate of fire.

Either you choose the line infantryman, hoping to put more fire down range, or you pick the rifleman hoping to put more accurate fire across the field, at the loss of volume. Of course, depsited the historical arguments this also makes a lot of sense for game balance.

Increase the reload times for rifles, please!

Also, what do people think about reload times whilst moving/ crouching?
As far as I am aware the quickest reload was:
1. Using a musket. (Quicker than a rifle.)
2. Standing up. (Chrouching put the musket at an odd angle and prolonged the process.)
3. Not moving. (For obvious reasons walking makes priming and ramming etc. way more time consuming. I know that British light infantry practiced this pretty effectively, but it was observed that the reload was much more difficult.)

Correct me where I am wrong.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: TooL69 on August 23, 2018, 11:28:24 pm
British Light Infantry & Rifle Tactics of the Napoleonic Wars
Firing practice
Although in the line infantry musketry was usually directed against compact
masses, in the light infantry marksmanship was prized, and its training brought
a significant tactical advantage. Its value was stressed by a number of manuals:
‘To fire seldom and always with effect should be their chief study. To men who
act singly or in small parties ammunition is extremely precious, and it should
be husbanded with the greatest care. Noise and smoke is not sufficient to stop
the advance of soldiers accustomed to war; they are to be checked only by
seeing their comrades fall, and that most effectually, when they fall by the fire
of an enemy who can hardly be discovered.’23
In a regimental order of 18 October 1803 LtCol Charles Hope of the 1st
Royal Edinburgh Volunteers noted that ‘the Regiment will see the folly and
danger of firing at random. If their fire is ineffectual, they may as well stand
to be shot at with ordered arms. Every individual must take a steady aim...
let the object be to keep up a well directed fire, [rather] than a very quick
fire.’ Lieutenant G.B. Jackson of the 43rd noted that ‘Our constant caution
to the men was...aim steadily, and fire low... [The French] might fire quicker
than we did, but such hurried firing scarcely admits of precision, whilst ours
has been truly described as “careful and deadly.”’ 24
Even though the musket was much less accurate than the rifle, light
infantry undertook extensive target practice at ranges up to an astonishing
400 yards, and were taught to allow for the effect of gravity upon the ball:
at 200 yards aim was taken at the middle of the enemy’s body, at 300 at his
headdress, and at 400 half a yard above his head.
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: messy on May 18, 2020, 04:54:42 pm
so....its 2 years later and all the issues ppl have mentioned about riflemen in this thread are still an issue.

Are there any plans to nerf again or is this just it now?
Title: Re: Riflemen
Post by: Kryptic on July 22, 2020, 09:10:26 am
I do believe they increase the reload speed not sure how much they are still to accurate for my own personal opinion they need to reduce the accuracy by atleast 5 to 10 percent.