Anvil Game Studios

Author Topic: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy  (Read 6660 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Leon

  • Able Seaman
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Leon
  • Faction: French Empire
  • Nick: LEON
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2017, 02:26:11 pm »
Agree, the fall and everything will be surely changed as the week's pass.
As you said, Charles Caldwell, most disturbing for me is the actual name of this post.
I am not insulting anyone by this meaning but I think first the other bugs and lags need to be changed.
Only one tiny detail that i have problem one is the bullet trajectory coming out from different position then barrel.
We gave mods data that surely can help for later fixes that's the most important thing.

Keep up with testing boys!

Offline CptBiym

  • Ordinary Seaman
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2017, 06:59:18 pm »
Crochunter.. Truly great stuff and much appreciated. In my first point, I made it clear why this is a necessary and urgent change. The entire game suffers because of the musket mechanics and the events even more so. I am worried that many players such as you, Caldwell, will become complacent in its flaws and put no pressure for this part of the game (the core of a musket game)  to be rehauled.

As for your comment on not "courrpting" the gameplay too much with laser accurate muskets, I will post a response that I gave to your exact complaints that others have expressed on the steam discussion boards. I said:

"Nice to see people understand how necessary and helpful these changes are for Holdfast. However, there is one recurring complaint I keep seeing and that is that "muskets would now be snipers" and "linebattles would end too fast."

To quickly address the first point. No, they wouldn't. The guns should have a range at which there is negligible spread and you will be guaranteed a hit. Currently this is within 2-3 meters. Negligble spread on a human sized target with a real musket happens at around 50 meters. If we are aiming for a 1:2, 1:3 scale of Holdfast to realism then we can have this spread occur at around 15-20 meters. If you aim dead center on an immobile target within this range, your 1/3 meter spread should gurantee a hit most of the time. Increasing the distance will increase the spread. Let me add here that having this predictable spread will have a huge impact on the skill factor of the shooting mechanics. You could now increase your chances of striking by learning the musket and rifle spreads at each distance and aiming accordingly. Practicing shooting at various distances is now useful, because player input will play a bigger role in the projectile's trajectory than the pure slot machine that currently flings the shot far left, right or wherever it wishes. You will now be encouraged to lead your targets and this multiplies the skill factor even further.

To address the second point that this would end battles too quickly: Good accuracy at 20m seems to be scary for a lot of people because the past few days have encouraged players to close the distance and trade blows within that distance. What would really occur is the engagement distance would increase slightly. Rather than running up to the enemy and firing shots at 15-20 meters distance and missing most or all of those shots, players would begin to exchange musket fire at 40-45 meters. They wouldn't magically pick off players at this distance. The spread would be reasonably tight to 20-25m but no further. However they could be sure that aiming dead center at a charging enemy 10-15 meters away would secure a kill.

In my main post I explain how linebattles and other coordinated events will see a massive benefit with this change in place. Lines would begin to exchange musket fire at 60+ meters and the regiment with the more experienced marksmen, that know where to aim and how to lead targets to increase their chances that the spread will hit, will inflict more casualties. At this distance, lines would not be obliterated as has been stated above. Currently, exchanging fire at beyond 30 meters is laughable. The first line to come within this distance of 20-30m and fire a volley will inflict massive casualties and end the engagement quickly. Events will be slower strategically with an increase to musket accuracy but faster to get into real action. More activity, but more strategy and depth as well."

Offline Leon

  • Able Seaman
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Leon
  • Faction: French Empire
  • Nick: LEON
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2017, 07:58:40 pm »
Yes yes CptBiyam but the problem is there are none line battles or events that are eaven destroyed by this problem.

Me and my regiment wanted to atend a linebatlle witch was canceled becuse of amount of lag we all had.

Therefor you cant eaven tallk about bad accuracy.
Lets let mods first to fix lags and bugs and then accuracy

The game is 4 days old

Offline TooL69

  • Surgeon's Mate
  • *
  • Posts: 105
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2017, 08:04:32 pm »
Clearly the mechanics of the muskets and rifles in this game needs looking at, however the overall accuracy of the weapon perhaps should not be overly tweaked...

Hows this for a sobering thought:

Quote
W.Müller author of Elements of the Science of War (1811) recorded the following results:

In a trial of well trained & competent men, fired at targets representing a line of 'Cavalry' (Not troops - so a greater target) at 100 yards.

The hit ratio at this range was a surprising 53% success rate, just over half the shots hit their target.

At 300 yards, it fell to 23%.....disappointed huh!

It was commented that 'Ordinary' soldiers fared far worse in the trials.

I think this shows that those players expecting to always hit their targets with perhaps a revise hit system SHOULD be disappointed.



Surprisingly, for a modern reenactor there is no problem to get into the target of 1.8x3 meters, and even to the target of 1x1 meter per 100 meters. It was a difficult task for a soldier of the 18th and 19th centuries! Only 40-50% of his shots fell into a large target the size of an infantry / cavalry line per 100 yards.
It is possible to draw a logical conclusion that the soldier of Napoleon's age was three or four times worse than the modern reconstructor.

Offline Leon

  • Able Seaman
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Leon
  • Faction: French Empire
  • Nick: LEON
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2017, 08:10:02 pm »
Yeahan thats all good but ,
The barell is the bigest cooperator where the bullet will go.
This rifles shown in video are made by new-modern drills.
While in 18th Cet. I doubt they had same drills etc...
Smoother the barell are the clearer shoot will be.

Offline Charles Caldwell

  • Regiment Leaders
  • Master's Mate
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Retired Founder of the SLRN [Naval Action]
  • Faction: British Empire
  • Nick: [1st L KGL]
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2017, 08:36:56 pm »
Surprisingly, for a modern reenactor there is no problem to get into the target of 1.8x3 meters, and even to the target of 1x1 meter per 100 meters. It was a difficult task for a soldier of the 18th and 19th centuries! Only 40-50% of his shots fell into a large target the size of an infantry / cavalry line per 100 yards.
It is possible to draw a logical conclusion that the soldier of Napoleon's age was three or four times worse than the modern reconstructor.

Note this Marksman is supporting his weapon, not under combat stress and has the luxury of refined modern powder and balls.

Also note these modern reenactors are clearly scoring a lower hit ratio than Napoleonic troops.

https://youtu.be/8Cw8ktmlF1A?t=11m36s
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 09:08:55 pm by Charles Caldwell »


Offline CptBiym

  • Ordinary Seaman
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2017, 11:18:41 pm »
First off, I ask what exactly are you trying to prove? You should make it extremely clear in your posts, as clear as I have made it in mine, the point you are trying to get across.

I stated that muskets have a 1-3 meter spread around 100m and a 1/3 meter spread at 50m. I then STATED MY REASON for giving these numbers and addressed why they were significant for Holdfast's gameplay and success. We are trying to make this game better by suggesting a fix to ballistics not only for it to feel more realistic but for the gameplay to improve as well. You have not done this. It seems like you are blabbering away trying to uphold a semblance of a counter argument for nothing at all. Simply to what? To suggest that the current ballistics are working fine and should be left alone? If not, then what solution do you have to offer? Is my 1:2,1:3 scale solution not a better alternative? Why not? You have made clear in your posts that you don't have the slightest clue on how napoleonic warfare was conducted and have consequently shown your disinterest in improving the game.

The brown bess has very good accuracy and tool's video shows just that. There are many napoleonic era accounts, not from reenactors, of musket accuracy showing 50-60 meters as a good distance to land center mass shots and 100 meters as a perfectly reasonable distance to inflict casualties. It's not prudent nor possible to draw a logical conclusion that "the soldier of Napoleon's age was three or four times worse than the modern reconstructor." Tool, no offense but I have seen your responses on the post suggesting for better reload mechanics and I have not been impressed by your logic there either.

Caldwell, the video you posted has an inexperienced musket shooter with terrible trigger control not compensating for the slight drop at each distance. I suggest you read the comments for that video and you will see far more criticisms of his ability than I will say here. And yet, he achieved the following results:

~3 yard spread at 200yds
~1-2 yard spread at 100yds
<1 yard spread within 75yds

What did you try to prove with the video and these accuracy results? Confirm what I've said in regards to musket accuracy at range? As I said above, make it clear what you intend to prove. I believe it's time to move on from this ridiculous apologist mentality for the current state of ballistics and come together on how to fix it. I submitted my solution a few posts back, give it a read. I also suggest you read my original post before responding further.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 05:14:47 am by CptBiym »

Offline CrocHunter

  • Master's Mate
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • CavGF Co-owner
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2017, 12:49:57 am »
I think part of the issue this game has with accuracy is comming from two major issues:
1. The point of origin is not on musket/rifle but actualy variably on at least 3 different location depending on FPS/TPS perspective and even if you are crouching, which put the origin weirdly more behind your back. This lead to not only potentional exploits as addresed in my post, but because the projectile's path starts actualy above the player, close range accuracy is all over the place.
Also given that the point of origin start behind the character and atributes a random horizontal spread immediatly at that point, you can have litteraly point blank missed even if litteraly stuck your weapon's muzzle into the enemy as for now, the muzzle and basicly the whole rifle/musket is nothing but a decorative object.

2. Randomly selected values when calculating the trajectory. While variation in the muzzle velocity seems like a neat idea to simulate potential loss of gunpowder when loading the musket/rifle, the values that are picked are not sensible and are overexagerating a marginal loss of powder. The random gravity values is just bad physics.
What is kinda sad is that there isnt a spread as would be expected around a predicatable flightpath, but first, you have from the get-go a random horizontal spread, then you have a vertical spread determined by the random pick of the muzzle velocity and gravity values. And while on the rifle the vertical spread is not as severe given that it picks values that are close to each other, the horizontal spread seems to be determined by a random pick of +-20 degrees of angle immediatly at the point of origin. Returning to a previously posted image, you can see that the vertical spread is minimal, while the horizontal is totaly random nonsense. (note that if this test would be conducted with a musket, the vertical spread would potentionaly be also all over the place)
Spoiler
[close]

Also as an oberservation. Given that the flighpath originate in the crosshair, this prevent from shooting when you are using the free-look key as the crosshair is not present at that moment.

To address the point why some peope including me are now vocal regarding the awfull handling of the shooting mechanic is that this game had closed testing for a while, with people I have known from playing NW DLC for Warband. The shooting mechanics seems to be the result of these closed testings and given that developers commented on fixing and improving melee while there were no mentions of improving the shooting mechanics (I may have missed them, please correct me if I did) I have a bad feeling that this is because everyone was saying "this is fine".

There is also a common argument I have noticed around, that it is to simulate inexperience. I will not address this point directly, but by examinating this cherry picking. If it is realy to simulate an inexperienced shooter what about melee then, melee training during that period was marginal compared to shooting, should we be happy with very bad melee implementation as it would now simulate the "lack of training"? I think no. I think that all mechanics in this game should be refined.

Leon, you cannot argue that there are no linebattles destroyed by this accuracy problem when there were hardly any linebattles conducted since the game's launch few days ago. I was invited to a linebattle but couldnt participate, but when I questioned some of the involved players the feeling they had from it was realy lackluster. Other players I know which are critical of many issues of the NW DLC for Warband said, that holdfast made them appreciate the NW DLC more and that they are beyond the 2 hours refund point anyway.

To get back to the implementation of firearms, these things are I think woth consideration.
1) Trajectory originate's in the musket (even if this would be the only thing implemented, it could improve the close range accuracy)
2) The trajectory calculation would use more consistant muzzle velocity numbers. The tighter barrel of the rifle would allow a higher muzzle velocity for the rifle leading to a longer, flatter trajectory.
3) Spread would be applied as a randomly picked degree of angle on a 360° rotation around the bore axis. A musket would have a bigger number, while a rifle's one would be smaller.
4) Weapons would be sighted to a certain distance, making marksmanship more reasonable.
5) As a potentional change to the gameplay making realoading while moving slower.
6) Ammunition selection for riflemans, where they could choose the amunition type they are currently firing and decide between loose ammunition balls for quicker reloading to use for harasment or tight ammunition balls for a precise long range fire with the downside of a longer reload.

Also for people questioning 18th century musket making, this is an old, hour long, but interesting document which shows a gunsmith using period tools and techniques to make a musket.
Nr3 "Griff's Own" Husaren & Infanterie Regiment
Rittmeister Sernis Thausten

Offline CptBiym

  • Ordinary Seaman
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2017, 02:24:53 am »
Great post crochunter. All your points on implementing firearms properly should be considered by the developers. They are the specifics behind my suggestion to reduce horizontal and vertical spread to realistic numbers, having them increase with distance, but at a closer range than reality. A 1:2 or 1:3 scale as I put it. I will give my input on your list.

1st point: It's necessary to have the projectile originate from the musket barrel and I've come to notice this having an effect at closer ranges. This fix should also help solve the discrepancy between shooting using 1st and 3rd person.

2nd and 3rd point: Having more consistent muzzle velocities, in other words, having the projectile reach a range of expected distance traveled, is necessary for the firearm gameplay of Holdfast. Spread needs to be changed so a far tighter grouping occurs at a reasonable distance. I've suggested a 2-3 meter spread at 60m and 1/3 meter spread at 20m. At the moment the spread becomes massive VERY early on in the projectiles flight the same way the projectile drop becomes massive after only 20 or so meters. Projectiles should have tighter spreads closer to the barrel. There should be a gradual increase in the inaccuracy of firearms, not a massive spike.

Realistically and gameplay-wise the drop should begin affecting the projectile in centimeters (if we go for a 1:2 scale, Holdfast to realism) at around 30m and slightly increase to a 50 centimeter drop at 60m, and then continue on this slow descent throughout its flight. Rifles and other accurate firearms if implemented would deviate from this by having a slower projectile descent and a tighter spread.

4th point: Yes, and I've suggested for a range where negligible spread will guarantee a hit. Real muskets have this at around 50 meters with a spread of around 1/3 meters. Having a 1:2 scale would give us this spread at around 25 meters. I've suggested 20m as a good distance.

5th point: Soon I will be posting everything the developers need to get right in terms of the current combat mechanics and UI to make this game the best linebattle and napoleonic warfare game to date. It won't be an intimidating block of text and most if not all will be slight readjustments that the developers could easily implement if willing. It will detail how to turn the current arcade-esque gameplay to a truly remarkable experience. A slightly slower reload for all weapons and a much slower reload for players on the move is on that list 100%. This also goes together well with the more realistic musket accuracy and improved projectiles.

Good day
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 07:36:35 am by CptBiym »

Offline Andee

  • Surgeon's Mate
  • *
  • Posts: 310
  • Faction: French Empire
  • Nick: 16e Andee
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2017, 04:44:23 am »
I feel like we're in the minority when it comes to reworking the musket accuracy. Most of the community is pretty hell bent on fixing the melee, when in reality, it is rather hard to get into melee on a public server without getting shot due to the surprising amount of teamwork in battles.

Offline 1stRVR Official

  • Landsman
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2017, 03:56:46 pm »
deleted, wrong account.

Offline Charles Caldwell

  • Regiment Leaders
  • Master's Mate
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Retired Founder of the SLRN [Naval Action]
  • Faction: British Empire
  • Nick: [1st L KGL]
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2017, 04:44:03 pm »
What did you try to prove with the video and these accuracy results? Confirm what I've said in regards to musket accuracy at range? As I said above, make it clear what you intend to prove. I believe it's time to move on from this ridiculous apologist mentality for the current state of ballistics and come together on how to fix it. I submitted my solution a few posts back, give it a read. I also suggest you read my original post before responding further.

'What did you try to prove with the video?' - the video was merely countering a reenactor who 'tongue in cheek' was trying to say that "they" were superior to Musket Infantry of the period. I was merely showing differing results with different marksmen. It also shows the hit and miss nature of the combination of weapon and the shooter!

Clearly I think at least anyway you 'Ballistic boys' are not seeing the game as I see it or dare I say others too.... This echo chamber of a thread merely shows those differing views perfectly. However you seem blinded by stats and intolerant of opposing views to your vision of the game. There I think the problem lies.

Now has Anvil Games Studio ever claimed this was a Napoleonic simulator, an accurate portrayal of the Period and warfare? Not that I've seen, but they do push the narrative of a Fun quick to learn, difficult to master FPS, set within the rich and glorious period of the Napoleonic Wars. Its never planted its flag on Accurate Ballistics, Period Warfare simulation or Battle reenactments. Its does however give us the essence of that in a contained beautiful arena. Its got it all, the smoke, yells, colours and feel of the Battles....

If you want 'Ultra Accurate Musket Ballistics' come join us in War of Rights, we'd love to have you. But this game I feel, has been designed for the masses, and if that means fudging the ballistics a little then why not. Its all about the 'feel' of the combat surely. I'm not saying combat both Musketry or Melee are perfect, they do need tweaking clearly. But does the game need players taking out other players easily at 100 yards? Are the maps big enough to allow players to manoeuvre if ranges of 100, even 200 yards are effective ranges for players?

This is what Im saying, nothing more.... ;)

I get my simulator fix with WoRs, for my get stuck in and have a laugh, Hold Fast is my fix of choice.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 05:14:33 pm by Charles Caldwell »


Offline Spork

  • Able Seaman
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • 为人民服务 - Serve the People
  • Faction: British Empire
  • Nick: SJWC Spork
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2017, 05:41:52 pm »
I agree that people should not be able to shoot over walls, and that the shot should originate from the musket, or at the very least a place that's not above or behind the soldier (does this lead to killing/TKing a guy behind you?).

Does the game need to be Arma NW? No. Would it be nice to have perfectly accurate ballistics? Sure. Would it be reasonable to have something that seems balanced? Absolutely.

Would it be nice to have multiple ballistics settings available to admins, like an arcade and hardcore mode? Yes. If you're going to have people doing hide behind cover or snipe and run away pub skirmishing, then you can set it to reduced range arcade mode, and if you're going to do a historical line battle at longer ranges with longer reloads, then set it to hardcore mode. The devs could make all sorts of ballistic balance options available that cater to all the different types of maps and battle scenarios. Heck, they could make a WW1 bolt action rifle / single action revolver ballistic mode with even greater firing range and accuracy and negligible reload time, if people wanted that (but let's maybe leave that sort of thing to the modders).

Offline CrocHunter

  • Master's Mate
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • CavGF Co-owner
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2017, 05:46:04 pm »
"Balistic boys", now that would be funny if it wouldnt sound so condescending. Look, I dont think anyone want exactly "Ultra Accurate Musket Ballistics", the thing we are I thing trying to get across is we want firearms to act like firearms and not wizzard wands.

And you have some problems with the stats I posted? While I used them as observation, they alone can be used as a sample for people trying to practice shooting should firearms stay as they are now.

This game doesnt exist in vacuum and players interested in this period have another similiar game that Holdfast take many inspirations from. Part of the AGS team as I understand took part in the developement of the NW DLC for Warband. If players want the feels, colors, yells, smoke of the napoleonic period they have it in the NW DLC which has shooting and melee more refined even if it is implemented in a arcadey way. And I am afraid if compared to the NW DLC the only thing that this game would offer that is not done better in the NW DLC is the sea combat, well Blackwake doest that now better.

Maybe what this game need is to decide what it wants to be, because it kinda feels its all over the place.
Nr3 "Griff's Own" Husaren & Infanterie Regiment
Rittmeister Sernis Thausten

Offline Cristnogol

  • Regiment Leaders
  • Standing Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • Faction: British Empire
  • Nick: Cristno
Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2017, 07:30:19 pm »
The amount of bullet drop is absolutely ridiculous