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Author Topic: (easy to script?) Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)  (Read 813 times)

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Offline Eternal

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Add a bonus to a line that is in a formation. There are two ways I thought about:
A) Bonuses activate the moment players are in formation (stand in formation, get a bonus)
or
B) Bonuses only effect players in formations (stand in formation, no bonus unless drummer in effective range)

If A)
These are the bonuses I thought about that would be in effect the moment players are in formation:
Increase running speed slightly
Increase reload speed slightly
Increase damage resistance slightly

If B)
Any bonus that is activated by a class (drummer, flag bearer, officers etc) will only effect players who are in formation. If someone gets out of formation, they will not receive the bonus.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 04:20:02 pm by Eternal »




Offline Spirit Baker

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Re: Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 12:35:02 pm »
I think bonuses are kinda redundant at this point. Keeping formation is almost impossible because of control scheme.

For a formation to really work this game needs some formation assist mechanics. Something that helps individual players to stay in formation. Maybe even making formation a separate entity without model, that regulate speed and soft looks the players in formation.

Visual command indicator for officer class, would be a desirable thing too.

Offline Eternal

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Re: Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 11:11:16 pm »
I think bonuses are kinda redundant at this point. Keeping formation is almost impossible because of control scheme.

For a formation to really work this game needs some formation assist mechanics. Something that helps individual players to stay in formation. Maybe even making formation a separate entity without model, that regulate speed and soft looks the players in formation.

Visual command indicator for officer class, would be a desirable thing too.

Have you even attended linebattles? Keeping formations in this game is not a problem at all. Reward players for being able to stay in formation.




Offline Spirit Baker

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Re: Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2019, 11:42:48 am »
Have you even attended linebattles? Keeping formations in this game is not a problem at all. Reward players for being able to stay in formation.
I thought this is quite obvious. Well yes you can hold the line formation when everyone stays still. Can you advance while holding the line formation, one row or two rows deep? 
The way you describe bonuses implies that game needs to recognize player formation. It will make linebattles events marginally better, will line formation become a thing on public server? Maybe once in blue moon. It's fun for a couple of times, and completely useless from gameplay perspective, mainly because there is no cav treat on the field. ;)   

In my mind to encourage line formation in way that will affect majority of the player base, is to make it easier to hold formation, advance in it etc.
To clarify, I'm not against bonuses you've mentioned. I just think bonuses alone will have almost no impact on how this game is played.       
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 11:46:39 am by Spirit Baker »

Offline Eternal

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Re: Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2019, 04:12:39 pm »
Have you even attended linebattles? Keeping formations in this game is not a problem at all. Reward players for being able to stay in formation.
I thought this is quite obvious. Well yes you can hold the line formation when everyone stays still. Can you advance while holding the line formation, one row or two rows deep? 
The way you describe bonuses implies that game needs to recognize player formation. It will make linebattles events marginally better, will line formation become a thing on public server? Maybe once in blue moon. It's fun for a couple of times, and completely useless from gameplay perspective, mainly because there is no cav treat on the field. ;)   

In my mind to encourage line formation in way that will affect majority of the player base, is to make it easier to hold formation, advance in it etc.
To clarify, I'm not against bonuses you've mentioned. I just think bonuses alone will have almost no impact on how this game is played.       

Sorry for late response, here's my reply:

Can you advance while holding the line formation, one row or two rows deep?
It's easy while in a column, which is the main formation while moving.
While in a line, the line will be tilted - but it's still a line, especially while writing a script for it. So yes, you can hold a formation while in a line and a column. I can send you videos from our livestreams as an example.

The way you describe bonuses implies that game needs to recognize player formation.
Indeed, that is necessary to encourage players to form lines in public servers and not be in the disadvantage against skirms.
So certain conditions needs to be met. These conditions I'll write at the bottom.
Thus, if you want to receive a buffs (if you take option 2), you must get in formation and the drummer bonus will effect you too.

I prefer option 2 over option 1.

I just think bonuses alone will have almost no impact on how this game is played.
What would you add? Because I am against mechanics (like in War of Rights) that would force you into a formation. I enjoy the freedom of movement, and the player effort involved into forming such formations.

The conditions:
1. Officer in range of unit.
2. Unit type (line infantry) is next to at least 3 other units by a certain range.
These two conditions alone are enough to consider this a formation. The result of forming a bad formation will immediately put you in a natural disadvantage, as it's easier to hit you. So you want to "abuse" the system and form a proper line.

Examples:
Bad: Chaotic "blob" - Everyone just stands around in an ugly formation and shoots. They become easy targets.
Good: Solid for future formations, as Forming a circle/square - It's a formation, and thus should receive a bonus. Bad against lines, good against cav.

If there's a big gap in the line, the only line to receive the bonus is the one that has an officer in range while the other will get "disconnected".

Drummers and flag bearers should have a range of effect, and the only one effected will be those in line formation.

In conclusion: Easy to script, will fit for future updates without the need to update the script.


Video about moving in double ranks:
Feel free to skip as the video is quite long. Notice how we manage to move in formation while in double ranks.


« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 04:42:14 pm by Eternal »




Offline Wigster600

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Re: (easy to script?) Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2019, 05:53:59 pm »
Perhaps there could be a war of rights style supression system to encourage keeping formation?
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Offline Eternal

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Re: (easy to script?) Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2019, 02:02:13 am »
Perhaps there could be a war of rights style supression system to encourage keeping formation?

You mean the ticket system? Lose more points if out of formation? I guess it could be a good game mode. However, it's only good for TDM matches.




Offline Sourkraut

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Re: (easy to script?) Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2019, 08:39:05 am »
Perhaps there could be a war of rights style supression system to encourage keeping formation?

You mean the ticket system? Lose more points if out of formation? I guess it could be a good game mode. However, it's only good for TDM matches.

Matches in war of rights end when the objective is captured though.

Offline Eternal

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Re: (easy to script?) Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2019, 08:56:25 pm »
Perhaps there could be a war of rights style supression system to encourage keeping formation?

You mean the ticket system? Lose more points if out of formation? I guess it could be a good game mode. However, it's only good for TDM matches.

Matches in war of rights end when the objective is captured though.

Ye, but do you have any additional suggestions or improvement to the one above, that would encourage lines in other game modes to remain in formation?

As for right now, there is no point being in a line when you can skirm.




Offline Spirit Baker

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Re: Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 03:35:44 pm »
Sorry for late response, here's my reply:
Yes, I've seen this in M&B NW. At time I though it's very cool. But my perspective changed a bit once I've watched reenactment guy review on Holdfast. Here it is.
Spoiler
[close]
He had almost no game experience whatsoever, but he knows Napoleonic wars period very well. I think this change in perspective can be quite beneficial.

What we really want from this game? My initial opinion when Holdfast came out was, I just want M&B NW with modern graphics and minor improvements. This is why I bought this game, even tho I was not impressed by amount of content, I just wanted to support the devs. My impression so far this is majority opinion, even if it's not for you M&B NW pops up in discussion as some kind of standard. But M&B NW was very limited project, limited by the engine, team experience and so on.

What if in some key aspects we would focus on surpassing M&B NW, especially in capturing authentic feeling of the era, ofc without sacrificing freedom of movement. And formations is one of this aspects. Advance in column is a thing from M&B, it is the only formation possible in this game that allows you to move forward in organized form. It's not authentic thing to break the line in battle to advance mere 20 meters forward. Almost all in game formations I've seen so far are very limited.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 03:40:28 pm by Spirit Baker »

Offline Spirit Baker

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Re: (easy to script?) Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2019, 10:50:19 am »
I was thinking how would networking part of any formation would work, as bonus script or some complex entity. In a very rough approximation, you don't have to synchronize it very much, players data would be sufficient.

But there is another way, basically ditch majority of players data and only synchronize formation data, with heavy simulation on a client side. This way scope of the battles can be increased by several magnitudes, something like 2k players on a servers or even more. With limited synchronization of players data, like guys in your regiment or players close by it would feel like authentic multiplayer experience.   

I doubt unity can handle that and ur average potato pc. But possibility of multiplayer experience with thousands players on the field is kinda intriguing. 

Offline Eternal

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Re: (easy to script?) Encourage line formations via bonus (Two ways to do it)
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2019, 07:03:27 pm »
What you're suggesting here is something that different from what I suggest, and thus we go off topic. I only focus on a minor feature, which is suppose to encourage line formations.

But if we are already drifting off topic, in my personal opinion games should follow simulation through gameplay, and not have gameplay follow through simulation.
In order to simulate an accurate Napoleonic Wars era, you'd have to give up a lot regarding gameplay. I can go all day regarding gaminization and simulation, and where it all goes regarding user interface, usability and etc. For me, standing in a line and shooting is good enough. (Just like in Battlegrounds 2, which predated M&B:NW)

I have various solutions in mind to what the guy mentioned in the video: Dynamic animations like in Assassin's creed, automatically walking speed changes (which, if you think about it, will be correlated to suggestion mentioned here) which can be toggled on and off, and so on and so forth. But considering the company that develops this game, I wouldn't expect this from them. It would be a great addition, but it's not as necessary as adding cavalry and improving melee.

if you want, you can start a new topic (if you haven't open one already) and we can discuss your suggestions there.