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Author Topic: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy  (Read 6854 times)

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Offline CptBiym

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2017, 12:12:15 am »
Leon, 2cm drop at 100m distance? Are you counting the distance of your monitor or ingame?

No one is calling for perfect accuracy. We're talking about napoleonic warfare - muskets, not modern assault rifles. You need to be aiming a full reticle, a few meters ingame, above your target at 15-20m to have a chance of scoring a hit. This increases to a ridiculous 2-3 reticles worth of projectile drop at 60+ meters.

Real, 18th century smoothbore muskets have a negligible drop up until around 100 meters where a soldier must accomodate for around a 60cm drop. At 50 meters and under the drop does not need to be taken into account. The spread on these real muskets was for all practical purposes inconsequential until over 60m where it would increase to 1-3 meters at 100+ meters. This doesn't mean "no bullet drop and x or y changes."

There are dozens of youtube videos showing average shooters hitting great spreads at 80+ meters. And about a change to accuracy ruining light infantry or rifles.. How did you reach that conclusion? Bewildering. Making the muskets and rifles closer to reality would be a great thing both atmospherically and gameplay-wise.

We don't need to have realistic spreads at 100m in the game but at the moment firing a musket at someone 15 meters away gives you the same spread that a real musket would have at 150 meters and this is unacceptable and there is no justification it. And yes, they lined up to exchange blows because massed infantry helped ally morale and kept order among the ranks while intimidating the enemy. Muskets have a surprising effective range of 90+ meters but to maximize their killing and demoralizing power were generally volley fired around 60-80m. Face to face but not as close as you assume.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 07:43:29 am by CptBiym »

Offline TomaHawkAU

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2017, 12:30:19 am »
The Baker Rifle was meant to have an effective range of around 200m, supposedly a guy made two shots at 550m but either way at the moment if its anything over 30m its quite hard to hit anything. I dont need to be able to shoot someone accurately over 200m because I agree that with only 125 people in the server games might end quick but I do think it needs to be more accurate.

Offline MrSharkie

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2017, 12:31:05 am »
I'm sorry to say, but this is not something that needs to be "Urgent Change" The shooting is ok for now, let them sort the more important things such as bugs first!

Offline Leon

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2017, 12:38:19 am »
Leon, I'm having trouble deciding whether you're being sarcastic or you're simply playing a completely different game. 2cm drop at 100m distance? Are you counting the distance of your monitor or ingame?

If it's the latter then you are mad and have come on these forums to willfully lie to people. No one is calling for perfect accuracy. We're talking about napoleonic warfare - muskets, not modern assault rifles. Let me reiterate once again for you since you have made it so painfully clear you did not spend 10 seconds reading my post before commenting. You need to be aiming a full reticle, a few meters ingame, above your target at 15-20m to have a chance of scoring a hit. This increases to a ridiculous 2-3 reticles worth of projectile drop at 60+ meters.

Real, 18th century smoothbore muskets have a negligible drop up until around 100 meters where a soldier must accomodate for around a 60cm drop. At 50 meters and under the drop does not need to be taken into account. The spread on these real muskets was for all practical purposes inconsequential until over 60m where it would increase to 1-3 meters at 100+ meters. This doesn't mean "no bullet drop and x or y changes."

You can learn about all this and save yourself looking dumb if you took 10 minutes and googled your doubts. There are dozens of youtube videos showing average shooters hitting great spreads at 80+ meters. And about a change to accuracy ruining light infantry or rifles.. How did you reach that conclusion? Bewildering. Making the muskets and rifles closer to reality would be a great thing both atmospherically and gameplay-wise.

We don't need to have realistic spreads at 100m in the game but at the moment firing a musket at someone 15 meters away gives you the same spread that a real musket would have at 150 meters and this is unacceptable and you ought to be ashamed for justifying it. And yes, they lined up to exchange blows because massed infantry helped ally morale and kept order among the ranks while intimidating the enemy. Muskets have a surprising effective range of 90+ meters but to maximize their killing and demoralizing power were generally volley fired around 60-80m. Face to face but not as close as you falsely assume.

There is a distance of shooting shown on top right corner.
And yes 2cm or if you prefer in pixels exactly 75.590551181 pixels from the white dot in the midle of the screen to the point of the bullet hit.
Give it 1+2 cm I don't mind

No need to get all angry and stuff. It's just a game mister.¸

Note: You cant measure the distance like in real life because you have no hight of character hight of musket being held and distance to the point of bullet fall so you can only use program that calculates the pixels from x to y destination + after calculating from profile picture drop from line x that represents line of sight to point b the bullet drop point.
In short use Pythagoras theorem which I would really like to recommend you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem. Enjoy your reading! Have a nice day!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 01:00:18 am by Leon »

Offline Wallace

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2017, 05:52:33 am »
I just feel like if they make the first person aiming down the barrel it would make people more accurate without changing the actual accuracy of the muskets it would give people a better representation of the actual travel path of the bullet

Offline Pugglesworth

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2017, 05:59:54 am »
Since this is a game, and the engagement distances and battlefield sizes are smaller than real life, it makes sense that the firearms should be reliable at shorter ranges than real life.

That said, the muskets do seem to be a little too inaccurate. The pistols also seem unbalanced by comparison. The pistol's main downfall is its extreme bullet drop, which can accounted for a little. Muskets don't really out-range pistols because the effective range of a pistol is roughly around the point where I could confidently fire a musket, and even then the musket is far more likely to miss than the pistol. Plus the pistol naturally reloads much faster. I think the pistol range is fine, but it may be a little too accurate, while the musket (+ rifle) range and accuracy need a small increase.

There's also another problem I am frequently encountering, or maybe more of a personal complaint I have. The same scenario keeps happening where I charge at someone who is reloading, and as I start to stab them in the face they finish reloading and instantly shoot me point-blank. I feel like this is because aiming happens too quickly. Making it so that reloading is slower while moving may also help, such that it doesn't provide so much of an advantage to backpedal away (i.e. every second gained from distancing yourself from the attacker is partially or completely lost to additional reload time). Though this might also become less of a problem when they reduce the delay in melee.

Anyways, that's just my 2 cents on the matter.

Offline TooL69

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2017, 12:18:08 pm »
Interesting information to learn:
http://www.willegal.net/iron_brigade/musket.pdf

Offline Leon

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Offline TheItalianoX

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2017, 01:55:44 pm »
Totallly agreeing with CptBiym

Offline Hughes

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2017, 02:17:20 pm »
Yeah, bullet drop needs work.
It's as if the powder charge is only 50 odd grains instead of 150+ grains of powder.

As another person stated, 'We ain't shooting with bows & arrows here'.

Offline Leon

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2017, 03:24:48 pm »


I took a shot from 61m distance
In which, you can see that bullet drops for 1 - 1,5cm +-
Therefore if it drops for 1cm per 50m it drops 2*1cm for 100m. If you want head shoot from 100m to shoot 2cm up from the head if you want normal kill just aim for the head.

The bullet isn't constantly falling down it only falls after some period of meters like 50m theory...

Offline Hughes

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2017, 03:46:08 pm »


I took a shot from 61m distance
In which, you can see that bullet drops for 1 - 1,5cm +-
Therefore if it drops for 1cm per 50m it drops 2*1cm for 100m. If you want head shoot from 100m to shoot 2cm up from the head if you want normal kill just aim for the head.

The bullet isn't constantly falling down it only falls after some period of meters like 50m theory...

Well done, trajectory looks correct.

The problem may be network traffic on a busy server.
I'm aiming near 2cm at 50m for centre mass with line inf.

'Aim High!' is the byword, for sure.

Offline Leon

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2017, 04:22:14 pm »


I took a shot from 61m distance
In which, you can see that bullet drops for 1 - 1,5cm +-
Therefore if it drops for 1cm per 50m it drops 2*1cm for 100m. If you want head shoot from 100m to shoot 2cm up from the head if you want normal kill just aim for the head.

The bullet isn't constantly falling down it only falls after some period of meters like 50m theory...

Well done, trajectory looks correct.

The problem may be network traffic on a busy server.
I'm aiming near 2cm at 50m for centre mass with line inf.

'Aim High!' is the byword, for sure.
Not only the network traffic, the wind presence is also included. While managing my server i found that you can put wind into the game. It affects the left/right theory trajectory for bullet

Offline TooL69

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2017, 04:33:11 pm »
And what is the speed of the bullets in the game?

------

“Benjamin Robins obtained muzzle velocities between 1425 fps (434 m/s) and 1700
fps (518 m/s) in 1742 with a ¾ inch (19.05mm) diameter ball and 45 inch (1.143 m)
long barrel. A century later Captain Alfred Mordecai studied gunpowder used for an
English musket and recorded an average muzzle velocity of 1561 fps (476 m/s) and
that 1477 fps (450 m/s) was adopted as the minimum velocity for proof of powder
when using 10 grams of powder, whilst 7.5g of powder achieved a velocity of 1550 fps
(472 m/s” (Roberts, 2008). After much research, it was concluded that data indicates
that the musket ball would have probably averaged, at the muzzle, about 1500
fps.(457 m/s).
This information is supported by Eyers (2006), in her Master’s research on the
‘Ballistics of matchlock muskets’. Eyers states that tests carried out in the 1980’s in
Austria by Krenn (1989), ((cited in Harding 1997), using small arms of the 16th, 17th
and the 18th centuries produced muzzle velocities between 450 and 500 metres per
second. This was obtained using flintlock muskets of 17 mm calibre with a powder
charge of 15 grams. Eyers concluded that 17th Century muskets, had velocities of
approximately 400-430 m/s and ranges of approximately 170-180 m when fired
horizontally.


A reference to Robinson's work:
http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys369/workshops/w10b/robins.html

Offline Leon

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Re: For Devs | Urgent change | Musket accuracy
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2017, 04:36:55 pm »
And what is the speed of the bullets in the game?

------

“Benjamin Robins obtained muzzle velocities between 1425 fps (434 m/s) and 1700
fps (518 m/s) in 1742 with a ¾ inch (19.05mm) diameter ball and 45 inch (1.143 m)
long barrel. A century later Captain Alfred Mordecai studied gunpowder used for an
English musket and recorded an average muzzle velocity of 1561 fps (476 m/s) and
that 1477 fps (450 m/s) was adopted as the minimum velocity for proof of powder
when using 10 grams of powder, whilst 7.5g of powder achieved a velocity of 1550 fps
(472 m/s” (Roberts, 2008). After much research, it was concluded that data indicates
that the musket ball would have probably averaged, at the muzzle, about 1500
fps.(457 m/s).
This information is supported by Eyers (2006), in her Master’s research on the
‘Ballistics of matchlock muskets’. Eyers states that tests carried out in the 1980’s in
Austria by Krenn (1989), ((cited in Harding 1997), using small arms of the 16th, 17th
and the 18th centuries produced muzzle velocities between 450 and 500 metres per
second. This was obtained using flintlock muskets of 17 mm calibre with a powder
charge of 15 grams. Eyers concluded that 17th Century muskets, had velocities of
approximately 400-430 m/s and ranges of approximately 170-180 m when fired
horizontally.


A reference to Robinson's work:
http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys369/workshops/w10b/robins.html

As shown on picture 258.627....
The theory is correct but not in all the games. For example. in NW its much higher  and here is lower + there is gravity that is impacting the bullet speed and trajectory.

To add yes in the 17th Century the muskets had more grams of powder because then it didn't matter will the bullet actually hit the target... rather scare or to hit a big bunch of people in one place. It had higer shooting distance but the moving of a bullet was terrible. After working on barrels in Napoleonic and post Napoleonic era they orientated on bullet hiting the target for sure then rather gambling if it will hit anyone.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 04:40:58 pm by Leon »